Dabel'kith Attack Zau'Afin in Camp

///The thing is if they dont want to get punished? It is NOT HARD to not earn a punishment. I've played UD on and off for the better part of a year, and I don't thin anyone would say that Xylan isn't a wiseass, but he's still never been beaten down by a Yath.

So really I don't see this as a matter of limiting the player. If they don't want to lose a big chunk of gold, then don't screw up.

///Also if it's set sot hat it's the house that has to pay the gold, that might cause problems to get dealt with internally. Nothing says "smack your unruly jaluk in line" like your house as a whole having to cough up 1,000,000 gold.

// Not everyone is rich, just please remember this. Never personally had more than 29k in my pocket at any given amount of time.

// Consequences of actions. Don't want to lose gold, don't screw up.

/// the thing is if the players run it, it might be the other side that screws up, but they wont pay anything, and by the other side i mean those who give the consequences.

let me give an example: miss Yath hear rumors that mister jaluk have been fighting in the camp, and he is not part of a quellar or anything, miss Yath sends her sevants to find mister jaluk and bring him to her. "i did naut fight in the camp miss Yath..." "i do not care what you say because you're not part of a quellar, gief Plak'la naow!!".

///well, there should be something on the forum if a punishment is given, along with the screenshots as proof. If it can't be proven, no punishment.

Also, as someone who's repeatedly broke, again: you don't want to be fined, don't earn it. If you can't pay? That's something that needs to be planned for. I think if it's someone in a house, the house pays. If it's a commoner or the house disowns them, the remainder is paid off in servitude somehow.

\\Yathrin are able to give orders to quellar members (excluding the quellar masters) so long as it isnt overruled by a higher of that quellar so if a jaluk tells a houseless yathrin to vith off expect to get punished

//I'm finding very few ways that this doesn't amount to "don't be dumb 101," honestly. If you mouth off to a person of authority, you get smacked.

// Anyways, just stating fines should be kept at a reasonable, realistic amount for all parties, with a major increase in repeated fines that can damage their wallets.

so what do you recomend to prevent this? (gets notepad and quill out and gets ready to take notes)

well, if its screenshots before taking action, then i dont think it will be a problem.

i dont think anyone will take action saying they have a screenshot but doesn't, we're too good for that.

// So the people enforcing this are going to pick up Lawful alignment shifts when they do, yes?

Also, are these laws intended to be applicable only within the camp? If so does that include the Outpost?

Also, for the record:

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The way that new-born spider broods tear each other apart to survive especially appeals to her. She promotes this by encouraging her worshipers to kill their rivals, thus ensuring that they are the strongest of the 'brood'.

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No Illithiiri shall harm or slay another, to be caught doing so the punishment will be Driderdom, as that indervidual would be found at placing their own interests before Lolths

There is an inconsistency here, to put it lightly. Although in fairness a lot of the UD is somewhat contra to canon, and this does solve a large part of the current brewing problem. I think the bit that sits worst with me is the fact that it's Driderdom - something Lolth generally reserves for those who fail her quite spectacularly. The idea that a random Quellar who live in a hole-in-the-ground camp can enforce it for following her tenets is odd. If they want to place a secular punishment for harming other Drow then fine, but Driderdom is specifically a divine punishment and sign of Lolth's personal disfavour.

DM Defiler wrote:

so what do you recomend to prevent this? (gets notepad and quill out and gets ready to take notes)

//I'm curious of one thing - what are the OOC/IC goals of setting up this system? From what I can see it's a.) to have a system in place to prevent abuse and b.) to put the power in the hands of the players. That's on the OOC side.

As someone else noted, ICly, gaming the system is entirely what one'd expect the Drow to do. With the camp strongly partisan and a majority of the higher-ups in the Yath associated with one house, I'd mostly except the IC situation to be (and this is not intended as a slight against Dabel'kith) even more tilted in their favour - bluntly, they control the majority of the judges, and the law is pretty fluid. Given the alignment (Chaotic Evil) of the church, this is natural, but, once more - what is the OOC goal of this?

I'm perfectly willing to trust the players to be fair if OOC is to take a precedence in these matters, if this is a framework of rules to dampen conflict that's been spilling OOC (as topics hither and yon hint at), but from an IC perspective, the church imbalance ensures that for some characters it'll be a matter of "not being stupid 101", for others it will be a matter of "Avoid the mercurial Yath, for we can expect to get our asses handed to us in a brand new way". This, I feel, is compounded by the statement that the NPC house and priesthood will indeed be looking for reasons to fine people, so they can fund the war effort - perhaps I read that statement wrong.


As for the matter of Driderdom, as I see it the goal is to enforce a retirement of a PC - the choice being to have the character retired or flee. I don't see why a simple execution won't do.

///Okay, can we stop OOCly spreading that non-truth? The higher-ups in the church are not associated with one house. DK has one yath'tallar, the other left Zau'afin and is neutral. Demo'loth throwing that about IC is one thing, but let's not OOCly act like that's the truth.

That said, given that people don't perma-die, this will never be perfect to cannon. We have to live with that. This gives us set rules in place of "what is appropriate behaviore and what is not appropriate behavior," both for the yath and for the non-yath.

Also, I believe that this only applies within the camp. Outside the camp, anything goes as far as I know. And given that permaing a character (which is what Driderdom would amount to) is a rather drastic move, I'm pretty sure that this is only going to be recommended, let alone approved, in fairly spectacular cases of uncontrollable and flagrant rule-breaking.

///also let's forget that despite their religion, the Drow do have strict rules in place for lots of things. You attack a house and wipe them out perfectly? Everyone grins and turns a blind eye. You get fought off or leave witnesses? Your whole house is going down in flames. Lolth takes that civilization and delights in making ripples in the pool. Causing chaos in something unstructured and formless is no big deal. Sending a structured people into chaos? Now THAT is amusing. People have roles and stations and ranks, there is a set path through various institutions that people have to go through, there are rules for each station... Drow society is hardly chaotic. It's got a huge chaotic streak running through a very strongly structured culture, but it isn't in itself chaotic.

Arjay wrote:

///Okay, can we stop OOCly spreading that non-truth? The higher-ups in the church are not associated with one house. DK has one yath'tallar, the other left Zau'afin and is neutral. Demo'loth throwing that about IC is one thing, but let's not OOCly act like that's the truth.

This ruling places rather a lot of power in the hands of Yathrin, which the Dabel'kith do have a relative abundance of. It's not a complaint, it's a statement of fact. It also makes for quite a concrete benefit for Daughters, which Dabel'kith again have a relative abundance of (I actually like this bit, the station should carry some weight).

Arjay wrote:

That said, given that people don't perma-die, this will never be perfect to cannon. We have to live with that. This gives us set rules in place of "what is appropriate behaviore and what is not appropriate behavior," both for the yath and for the non-yath.

It just seems...odd to be so draconionly against something that Lolth actively encourages. I do get there needs to be some sort of balancer to stop powerbuilds answering everything with a sword, but conversely this ruling makes it 100% risk-free to insult anyone who isn't a Yath, presuming you're female. That's not canon. Yath tread carefully around powerful males, never mind other females.

Arjay wrote:

Also, I believe that this only applies within the camp. Outside the camp, anything goes as far as I know. And given that permaing a character (which is what Driderdom would amount to) is a rather drastic move, I'm pretty sure that this is only going to be recommended, let alone approved, in fairly spectacular cases of uncontrollable and flagrant rule-breaking.

Pedantic as it sounds, this is the kind of thing that absolutely needs clarifying, as do the borders of camp, if rules like this are going to be implemented otherwise at some point it will cause a massive blow-out when Drow A kills Drow B in an area that might be inside Quesin'tani borders and might not.

Arjay wrote:

also let's forget that despite their religion, the Drow do have strict rules in place for lots of things. You attack a house and wipe them out perfectly? Everyone grins and turns a blind eye. You get fought off or leave witnesses? Your whole house is going down in flames. Lolth takes that civilization and delights in making ripples in the pool.

OK, point taken there. It just seems...excessively Lawful to me, if that makes any sense. [Interesting aside: technically the 'House War = one-night kill or you're doomed' is a Menzo unique thing, they are the only City where House War is illegal.] I guess partly I'm concerned that this ruling is going to make the Camp equivalent to Freehaven, where people will literally hop up and down in front of you hurling idiotic insults because 'Lol, Golems'.

I mean, on the one hand it does fit well with the IC direction the camp has taken (an extreme centralisation of the priesthood, reduction in the relevance of the Quellar-based social structure, reduction in the power of the Ilharess station, highly uneven 'weighting' given to Lolth's portfolio elements). On the other I'm trying like hell to poke holes in it precisely because it's ten times easier to plug those holes now before it's implemented then in a month when it's abused.

// IMO certain players are using OOCly motivated rivalry to fuel their IC actions around the camp. And it's creating these scenarios where characters are blatantly disrespecting Yath etc

In such cases, these characters have to suffer the consequences.

I wish everyone would put ooc grudges aside.

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Driderdom (Yath'tallers + )~DM's have final say~

This comes down to two things, you can retire your character and a drider npc will be made of your level,

// Could you explain it a bit better, how will this affect the PC?
What are the additional + or - effects that the PC will have in the future, after the transformation?
Only changes in his appearance, or the player's character properties will change as well to become more suitable to driderform? (I meant immunitiy to poisons, and negative cha points and so on...)
Furthermore the PC who "get the driderform" will now be treated by the others as a heretic?
Because if this is so, then control such drider-like char is a huge RP experience, and therefore it will be "worth" to create such a naughty, and disrespectful drow PC imho

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Driderdom (Yath'tallers + )~DM's have final say~

This comes down to two things, you can retire your character and a drider npc will be made of your level,

You will have no control over the character, as far as your control over them goes they are permadead. Add to that that the vast majority of Drider are rendered irrevocably insane by the process.

Of course that assumes we stick with driderdom as opposed to 'permadeath execution or exile' which I'd favour for the reasons already outlined.

// whops I missed that part, then considered I asked nothing
*sighs*it sounded too good to be true ...I guess next time I should read more carefully
^^'

A perfect Strike of the Nail on the Head - thank you

nlyh wrote:

// IMO certain players are using OOCly motivated rivalry to fuel their IC actions around the camp. And it's creating these scenarios where characters are blatantly disrespecting Yath etc

In such cases, these characters have to suffer the consequences.

I wish everyone would put ooc grudges aside.

I agree with this last sentience, and I think everyone should consider taking it to heart please

I'd agree entirely except my entire experience since joining this server has been that that is simply not going to happen. Something needs to be put in place to allow the rest of us to enjoy our RP without worrying about OOC-motivated griefing/response to griefing/metagaming etc. It's tiresome, the punishment imbalances are tiresome, the griefing is tiresome, the increasing ability of several parties to prevent others roleplaying is tiresome, the whole thing is just...tiresome. Something needs to be done about it or we'll keep loosing every new player that walks into camp within a month.

Okey dokie.

firstly just want too point out, any posts that of off topic I will be deleting them as soon as I see them as well as any off topic posts that are spawned by them.

Thanks for pointing it out Naralia, but the way iv always seen the drow law system is controll chaos to be honest, yes you are expected to do off with rivals, and even secretly congratuated, if you are not caught.

the purpose of the laws is main in two parts:

1) to add more too the expirence and feel of playing in the underdark and a drow.

2) to prevent unplesent things that have happened in the past happening again which are not up for discussion here, they are in the past, dead and burryed as far as im conerned, which also links into the first goal.

I just though instead of me Laying down the Law, you guys had a right to help me decide upon this as it is going to be an important factor of your game play ^_^

Yes Driderdom is pretty much character death, you stop playing your character and a npx monster if added which will get used in plot and stuff. (please not no single on dm can decide this, will require all UD DM's too agree on driderdom)

I agree full heartly with smaller punishments first and kinda was just focusing on the end game thinking the qu'ellas, all three of the player Qu'ellas, can take care of their own, and will have dm surport should they have problematic players that need dealing with (which I know their wont be because your all awsome.)

what else, mmmm gold fines will be steep, sorry, campillharess and ultha'talla are being greedy and want too fund the war effort so you can expect fines to be something like 10 k, 20, 50,000 k.

loss of items as I mentioned will not be deleted, they will be cirulated back into game one way or another, if you can not pay the fine.


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Tibus_Heth wrote:

I'd agree entirely except my entire experience since joining this server has been that that is simply not going to happen. Something needs to be put in place to allow the rest of us to enjoy our RP without worrying about OOC-motivated griefing/response to griefing/metagaming etc. It's tiresome, the punishment imbalances are tiresome, the griefing is tiresome, the increasing ability of several parties to prevent others roleplaying is tiresome, the whole thing is just...tiresome. Something needs to be done about it or we'll keep loosing every new player that walks into camp within a month.

pretty much my opinon too.

I am hoping this will work, but ultimately if problem players can not ultimately change, to ensure that people are having fun, the UD DM Team will unfortently have no other choice but to remove them from the Underdark entirely.

apart from that keep on thinking up stuff.

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Menzo unique thing, they are the only City where House War is illegal.

House war is not legal or illegal. In Menzo or anywhere. The Nobles simply consider it uncouth to be caught fighting in the streets, this does not mean it does not happen.

It is not ilegal to engage in house war. It is not illegal to loose a house war or win one. There is no law. Lolth punishes failure with death, it is her way. You fight a house war and leave survivors to point fingers at you, you have failed. That is it. No law, no legality.

I am on the fence about many things not only with this but things in general.

I have had a strong opinion on things in the past and I have listened to others in regards to their opinions around the way the things are in the UD.

1. The more I have thought on things the more I see a general issue around they way we have structured power in this game. By allowing Yath to run things we have in essence lowered the power of being in a quellar... meaning Yath of Quellar A or for that fact No Quellar should not be able to order around Member of Quellar B... it is different if we are discussing matters of the church.. but say a patrol or such that is naut in their domain of influence... we have allowed the Yath to be the catch all for power.. and in essence have regulated our Mages and Others to a role of no importance. I do have an issue when I see one House order another House around and figure they should be able to when they are a Yath... It is wrong. Since the majority of our Yath can not divide House and Church then I think we as players should.

2. I do have issues with one group or the other thinking they run the camp... NO ONE runs that camp....You want to speak for the camp... my answer would be DON'T. I dont care if you are an Ilharess... you do not speak for another Ilharesses Camp.. and if you dont like it to damn bad.

3. With this new ruling I am sure Edrik will be the first Drider

Shadow