OOC Misty Falls / Zhent issue

After considerable discussion with Dm, I have come to the following point and wish to share with players to let everyone choose their own path.
1. High Lord Chembryl of the Zhentarium communicated that the Misty Falls area will be taken, and the occupants have one chance to leave or die in senseless defense.
2. Elektra serves the Red Knight , Lady of Strategy , who teaches that when able to choose your battle , fight when and where the odds favor victory. Clearly , the single Keep of Misty Falls can not stand long against the war machine and resources of Zhentil Keep. She , morally , can not make choices that risk the lives of those who trust her leadership.
3. She chooses to abandon , with the following RP options:
  A. The Keep can be opened to all who wish to kill Zhents , and will have free access and run to all areas of the Keep to fight ... HOWEVER... The Dm states that all who are there , fighting against the Zhents , risk Permadeath of the character, depending on how the battle goes. I consider this a good reason not to fight, but the choice remains for the player to make. When ever the Keep is taken by the Zhents, it will be burned in a scrorched earth mannor.
4. OR ... We burn the Keep as we abandon it, leaving a ruin for the new occupants.

    I would ask for players here to list who
Might wish to occupy the Keep , to fight the battle, so we can best decide what the next move should be.
I know several ex players who would return for battles with Zhents, but the Perma risk may deter many.
The option is open to everyone.

Lastly, open ground skirmishes at other times against Zhent patrols and such will not carry the Perma risk. Perhaps burning of the Keep will galvanize opposition and lead to such skirmishes with much less risk.
The guild will be relocating and rebuilding .

If only a few say they would fight, we may burn it down. A battle could be a lot of fun, yet the consequences are serious.
Let me know.

I would like to remind DMs of their own rules that aggressors risk permadeath by attacking, not defenders. This is what I was told when we attacked Shadowdale. It makes no sense to change rules simply to forcefully and oocly take over Misty Falls or any player guild, while granting themselves immunity to DM factions, each time they attack or defend DM lead faction.

I agree with Oyo. Also, I vote for my (and Jaerl's) original plan of sabotaging the keep and having druids cover the area with forestation.

I'm glad that White Rose has made an effort to work toward a satisfying resolution for all involved.  Kudos to her on that.

I'd like to point out to those who replied above, however, that it was she who instigated a conflict with a much larger, neighboring force who her guild had maintained peace with until that point.  As for us Zhentarim types, we have responded with the rp appropriate to her newfound hostility, so please don't sully her respectable efforts here by trying to place the consequences of her rp on us.

I can see the point of both sides. If it is a rule of the DM's that the attackers are risking permadeath, this should not change. However, in the thought of fairness, I also believe that if one side risks permadeath for attacking, the other side should still be risking permadeath for defending.

Large scale battles like this should not have the same amount of people coming out of them as went in, on either side. Regardless of who instigated hostilities etc, a large scale attack does not allow for one side to come out unscathed.

While I believe that rules should be flexible, if it is a general DM rule that it's the attackers risking permadeath, then it should not swing a full 180 turn for one event, particularly if it is a faction against a guild. No matter how powerful a faction is, a guild could still leave a dent in their numbers, and if the players defending are risking their characters lives to permadeath, the characters attacking ought to be risking the same thing. If nothing else, it ought to be kept fair.

To be clear : I was just following what the HDM at the time asked me to do.
He wanted an Rp reason to bring down the guild hall, as first on the server to endure Rp related demise. He was trying to do two things 1. Show that guild halls are not immune to story lines and consequences. And 2. Gather Rp centers into two main areas, in stead of spreading out in seperate guild halls.

Soo he tried a couple of things to get this rolling ... Infernals return to reclaim Elektra and the Keep was one ... Nobody cared it seemed. He tried something else, I can't really recall much ... But then the Zhents came walking across our lawn with vampires... Soo ... It was the moment the HDM was needing to start this whole thing in motion.
That is the background. I just been trying to please the staff.

And so... Keep in mind , this is not an isolated one time event , but was intended , by HDM ARCH to be the ice breaker on guild hall vulnerability to story lines. As it is happening to us, so it can happen to others.

Sadly, the guild is almost broken from it.
Arch gave permission for me to show the Skype dialogue , not that I want to , but if any truely doubt the history and purpose of all this, it is still there.

Anyway, lets make something good out of it. Try to have fun with a challenging tale of bravery, intimidation, justice and war . ... Rp!

cdnspr wrote:

I'd like to point out to those who replied above, however, that it was she who instigated a conflict with a much larger, neighboring force who her guild had maintained peace with until that point.  As for us Zhentarim types, we have responded with the rp appropriate to her newfound hostility, so please don't sully her respectable efforts here by trying to place the consequences of her rp on us.

Lyons and Zhentarim started conflict 5 years ago, does that means our guild can get on DM wipe list to do as well? Just because you are far larger force in lore and have DM on your side should not also give you the advantage of permadeath immunity while invading a claimed land. So since you are immune to permadeath you are capable of just keep attacking until you success one day. The attacked side will not have oprtunity to recover its lost men because they are not allowed to respawn like the invaders. This looks so unfair and so hard believe that anyone, but invaders, would think this to be okay.

Also the timing of using a player guild hall as an example to show other player guilds how they are not immune to fall and consequences could not be worse. If I was a DM on a dying server, I would try to inspire players in creating player guilds, not destroying them. And pheraps when there are enough players to see consequences a guild can face, then initiate such events. What about events to show everyone how DM factions are not immune to destruction and permadeath? So far I've see DM factions being immune to permadeath when they are defending and when they are attacking. And player guilds being at risk of permadeath when they are defending and when they are attacking.

To be clear : I was just following what the HDM at the time asked me to do.
He wanted an Rp reason to bring down the guild hall, as first on the server to endure Rp related demise. He was trying to do two things 1. Show that guild halls are not immune to story lines and consequences.

this can be both good and bad as it can be used to clear out dead guild halls or taken over abandoned or dead guilds by others. but this can also set a presedence that any guild regardless or affiliation can be killed off by npc faction "server faction" that has a few players and seriously uber npc's that no one or 3 players could stand against. but on the flip side those who fall to take overs would be allowed to rebuild elsewhere that may help ease the pain. i can see this being allowed if agreed to by guild owners prior to anything happening but being forced into it is not ok it must be discussed in detail and both sides clear on what is happening and why. also do infor players in ooc fashion so it does not create false anger at the staff for something that was agreed to.


And 2. Gather Rp centers into two main areas, in stead of spreading out in seperate guild halls.

who cares rp will happen where ever one finds it.

"I just been trying to please the staff." i can not stress enough this is bad you are not here to please staff you are here to enjoy playing as you want. they are here to do minor corrections enforce rules and consequences and provide you with some things to do if you choose to. like providing events. sorry but it is my firm belief a dm chooses to do so knowing they are serving the players not the other way around. they can make suggestions to alter rp to fit the situation or if know your toon real weel and where you want to go with it provide guidance to get there. their fun comes from organizing events and stories for you to play in or thru. and always be kind to dm and understanding because it is a highly stressful job.


as i understand the perma death crap doesnt matter who attacked who in a situation such as this both sides should risk permadeath equally she risked it when she did whatever but lived now they want to retaliate against the guild so they should encure the same risk of permadeath as any one who defends it as far as guild members go. those not in the guild but choose to help for what ever reason should not incure the perma death penalty. simply because they doing what the think is right for their toon and likely tho ooc know the situation but icly do not. the enfocing of perma death on one side but not the other is just crap way of dictating who is going to win and forcing an outcome that may not have been.

example i use to be a high elven mage had wife killed along with unborn baby by zhents and recently attacked again by zhents that would entitle me to go to krag itself use high magic and destroy it and all with in with out the consequences of perma death and there would be nothing they could do about it. that would leave the zhents no place to go cause i would then take over the lands they have now and force them back to towns and such that are not in game yet and likely never be. you see the doors it opens up? now i no longer rp high magic or any real use of it for whatever reason it was decided i could no longer do so when i never agreed to nor was here when it happend but i choose to not use it simply because not many dm's no how to work it right and we have less dm's now for me to ask one to do things that envolve it. and i show them respect tho i do not agree with it simple cause i understand all this and i know no player would really follow the rp use of spells in battle with out dm supervision. so it makes what i knew and achieved useless except for rp purpose and reputation.

so rp wise im a mage that all zhent should shy away from confronting past walk away option and seriously avoid pissing off. that is my reputation with all i have done against them. the old guard knew this and rped appropriately not always running but also not always confronting as if they had nothing to loose. this is no longer the case and people no longer care about reputations and such which should not be the case but it is what it is.

i think i got a bit off subject so disregard what does not pertain to this situation.

back on subject i say do what you think your character would do icly and if things were already set in motion then simply follow thru with it in a way fitting to your character. and rebuild else where. permadeath on both sides should be the risk. the zhent may not be fair in tactics and such but the rules should be fair for both sides.

I suggested permadeath to both sides before to be fair, but permadeath was only enforced on invaders, back when Lyons attacked Shadowdale. And while I still think that both sides should be at risk of permadeath, I don't think that they should change the rule now when attacking. And that for future people will know that both sides would be at risk of permadeath. Because right now it looks like rules changed for 180 just for this event, and 90 itself would be also bad in my opinion but still very acceptable only after this event. But 180? Really? This is not teahcing players about life of a player guild, this is teahcing players how they cannot trust the rules nor DM team to follow them.

OOkay , OOkay. . . sooo. . . .
consider that back when the HDM came up with this idea, the server was busy, and he was actually trying to improve things. Later, he bailed on me and left me hanging by my neck with this situation. . . i could seriously complain about that. ..but. . ..
. . . i see this as a possible plus for the server . . . War is exciting . .it galvanizes people. . . I hope this event (s ) energizes the whole server and brings players in.

If there was anything i would suggest here. .it would be . .NO Perma at all. ...just a ton of Rp . .tactics. .raids. .. battles. . . strategies, counter moves. ... etc etc. . . .

perma is the damper on what could be HUGE for us all.

Double posted...

Skyiba wrote:

This can be both good and bad as it can be used to clear out dead guild halls or taken over abandoned or dead guilds by others. but this can also set a presedence that any guild regardless or affiliation can be killed off by npc faction "server faction" that has a few players and seriously uber npc's that no one or 3 players could stand against. but on the flip side those who fall to take overs would be allowed to rebuild elsewhere that may help ease the pain. i can see this being allowed if agreed to by guild owners prior to anything happening but being forced into it is not ok it must be discussed in detail and both sides clear on what is happening and why. also do infor players in ooc fashion so it does not create false anger at the staff for something that was agreed to.

Skyiba,

Could you please drop the passive aggressive and not too subtle jabs?  Battle-Captain Trey is built respecting PC rules. He is a plain 23 Fighter 7 Weapon Master if I recall.



Oyo,

Could you please stop bringing everything back to Lyons, they are a minority faction on the server and although you arguably brought a lot of RP with your guild, a lot of it happens outside of server lore. You were allowed to proceed like this by the very DMs you're so keen to throw punches at all the time. Keep that in Mind.


White Rose,

You either want or don't want to have your guild relocated, and I tell you that as a friend, backstabbing the DMs by saying they forced you to do something then saying you just wanted to please them then saying it would be great RP is not going to get you anywhere good.  If you want to proceed with this and have your guild relocated go with the flow.  If you did not want to, your character simply had to maintain neutral/friendly status with the Zhent forces, nobody forced you to take actions.


Everyone,

Can we please get back in-game and stop bickering on the forums?  
a-) It looks bad for potential new players trying out this server.
b-) It looks bad for old players thinking about returning to the server.
c-) When people are bickering on the forums they are not logged in-game (most of the time) and they are not filling up the server which lead to people checking, seeing and empty server and logging off in their turn.

In short, you're hurting more the server you're trying to help than anything else.


Thanks.

HexBladerX wrote:

c-) When people are bickering on the forums they are not logged in-game (most of the time) and they are not filling up the server which lead to people checking, seeing and empty server and logging off in their turn.



Thanks.

Unless you are running Dual Monitors ! Or using Forums on a Secondary Android/ Apple/Surface tablet device.

HexBladerX wrote:

Oyo,

Could you please stop bringing everything back to Lyons, they are a minority faction on the server and although you arguably brought a lot of RP with your guild, a lot of it happens outside of server lore. You were allowed to proceed like this by the very DMs you're so keen to throw punches at all the time. Keep that in Mind.

As a guild leader I want to see things done fairly, and I use my own guild as example. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes we are minority and most of our RP is not approved so it did not happen. I can bring other guilds in the topic too as I know of those that were affected by unfair threatment (not permadeath one), but they have guild leaders as well that should step up and let DMs know if they feel something to be wrong.

I apologize to DM team and Zhent players, I am aware that my choice of words is far from best, and I am willing to take hit for it as long its message is received, as long you see what are you doing, and not see only how I feel about it. DMs please, don't give immortality to your own factions when you are raiding against players with peramdeath warrning, that's unfair way to wipe others out. And please give donnors refunds for what they invested time and effort if you proceed with your actions.

There are consequences for defending the Keep, it's plain and simple. If the Zhentarim had a small fort in the Cormanthor, and had to defend it against the Army of Myth Drannor, I would expect the exact same thing for them. The reason, Oyo, that you were threatened with permadeath, was because you were attacking a hub. If you had attacked another guild, no permadeath would have been involved.

ADM_Coffee wrote:

DM events (a DM MUST tell the player(s) that what they are about to do may warrant a perma death, or that the event itself is inherently dangerous, before letting the players engage in it. If players legitimately recover their fallen comrades within the event, the DM may NOT enforce permanent death regardless)

That last line still applies. I'm not going to lock you into death if you choose to defend the Keep, but it is a massive risk.

The NPC that was in that fight Skyiba, was built within the servers rules, and not only that, he didn't let you ward and that is why you were defeated. A mundane fighter with no magical devices isn't going to let a wizard ward himself. He also had a number of other Zhentarim at his back.

DM_Rook wrote:

5. You may see me on an NPC account called ZhentarimNPC, these are characters that help out the Zhentarim in certain situations. These NPCs are controlled playerside so that I may used more advanced tactics, as well as create RP situations that I would otherwise be unable to DM side (Yes, that does happen).

Don't expect the enemies in my events, Zhent or otherwise, to be dumb. I will use tactics with NPCs I am controlling.

I also have given the okay for the refund for the guild. *sigh*

I'm not here to just randomly take things from others, but there are consequences for RP. Sometimes defending something like Misty Falls Keep is a huge risk. You have to weigh the risk vs. the reward, and sometimes the decision isn't an easy one.

I am also thinking the full details of this pending event, after the fact, should be published in a single and LOCKED post once this event completes. So that way everyone can rest assured what is being done is fair and just. This will alleviate some of the Grieved perceptions floating about. So far the picture is Swish cheese and only being made worse by beating around the bush. Rumors of miss-treatment unless calmly accurately explained will always be a detriment to a server.



Stay calm everyone, if the guild leader has accepted what is going on, let it ride.

HexBladerX wrote:

Skyiba wrote:

This can be both good and bad as it can be used to clear out dead guild halls or taken over abandoned or dead guilds by others. but this can also set a presedence that any guild regardless or affiliation can be killed off by npc faction "server faction" that has a few players and seriously uber npc's that no one or 3 players could stand against. but on the flip side those who fall to take overs would be allowed to rebuild elsewhere that may help ease the pain. i can see this being allowed if agreed to by guild owners prior to anything happening but being forced into it is not ok it must be discussed in detail and both sides clear on what is happening and why. also do infor players in ooc fashion so it does not create false anger at the staff for something that was agreed to.

Skyiba,

Could you please drop the passive aggressive and not too subtle jabs?  Battle-Captain Trey is built respecting PC rules. He is a plain 23 Fighter 7 Weapon Master if I recall.
.

sorry it wasnt meant to be taken by just one faction as i know each one had uber npc's dont know if they all still do for sure so if you took it as an attack it was not meant to be so i appologise for it. and in fairness i did not mention names simply because i have been in more than one battle that the above statement does fit with npc's actually probably 100's of them since i been playing.

*winks* theres an old saying never assume anything because once you do it makes an ass out u and me. many maybe new or plain forgot but if i say something you not sure on feel free to ask me to clarify or for a better example.

sorry you took it the wrong way and my appologies for not being more clear.

Personly I think this whole thing is completely unfaire!

Ever since Misty Falls was built, we were nothing short of being grifed, lied to, and to change some va rp Relaited, and to bring it up date took about three months. Is completely unreasonable.

And yes Misty falls has whole lot more then jest four (4) members.


Sory Rook, it's simply how I feel.

In the end, I am glad some this discussion has been aired. I hope we can take positive aspects from it and grow.

I see this has reached a point that I need to step up and bring things to a close.

I will upload the destroyed version of the Keep and land, as if we had burned it down ourselves. It is still up to the Dm team to accept it and bring it in game, I have no control over that part.

I do this to avoid anyone loosing chars to Permadeath.
I do this to end this conflictive discussion.
I take the full responsibility of the losses to our Guild
I admit I boinked up even considering the HDM's proposal.
I admit Rp with Zhents to try to fulfill that proposal.
I confess my wanting to please , went very off base in the end.
I admit this is too far to back out.
All this is on me.


Sooo I also , hereby, grant full permission to any and all DM's to give keys to players who wish to occupy the Keep before the destroyed version is put in game. Anyone who wants to defend it , can , while it lasts. No battle , no permadeath , no conflict needs to happen. Nobody needs to leave angry.

  I can upload the burned version as early as Wednesday or Thursday

Let there be Peace !

White Rose

thanks rook for the clearing up of things this is why i think a full detail of whats been discussed should be posted before anything happens it helps keep the dm out of hot seat and players form getting angry over something they shouldnt. it is good the refund or build else where whatever it was is happening.

white rose you not the only one this falls on so its nto all on you you didnt completely boink up it is ok to please dms but in better or different way.

hex blade you do have valid points about dm's and toons and factions. i more than anyone know the difficulties of having a toon as dm that is part of a faction im in and fully aware of the "views or opinions" on such from all sides. here was what i did i became a floating dm that could help out in any position guild or faction and refused any position of power in the faction i was in as a player. it was after i left being a dm that i started gaining positions and so on in the chosen faction.

i would support that for other dms but i also understand their reason for not having a toon in the faction they are over as well. and if they want that to stick i support it.

it is hard for dms to be players as well. what we do need on server is consistency if one dm says something is ok for one and then another says its ok but with difference for another lower or higher skills needed and so on this makes it unfair to the previous one. i know i open alot of doors as a player now and i do so for others as well. i send list in with things not only for my toon but possible alternates for others as well this does include zhent and drow as well that i try to come up with things for.  i do this as a player i did it as a dm. sometimes when i take a break some things are taken away for various reasons sometimes legit understandable ones other times not so.

example golems i wanted those to be able to be done ingame with payments and such for guild only not personal ones so i researched dnd books pulled out some for my faction pulled out some for zhent and some for drow. then i pulled out some for just classes like druid and wizard  and so on i sent the list in and talked with dm's on them. they did the math after i sent them the resources i had info wise and we worked out between us what i thought exceptable from what they thought. and yes we raised and altered some to fit server and for high level toons basicaly only lvl 30 and with specific skill and feats we altered gold and xp cost for some other we left like it was. we did this to give higher levels with basicaly nothing left to play for something they could work twords as well. ive done same with spells for rp use and so on. we settled on rp on forums with in game payment for them.

this is something we need more of form players as well. that and a little more respect for dms and the crap they have to go thru. same for players as well. i know i still have to work on some things as well.


i am glad this thread was done and it got some things out in open and even touched on some ideas that could be considered later on. im trying to think of more to say but ill stop here for now.

Just saying, Gruum is highly available if the destruction and sabotaging plan goes into effect.
Who better?

Aidan Airna wrote:

Personly I think this whole thing is completely unfaire!

Ever since Misty Falls was built, we were nothing short of being grifed, lied to, and to change some va rp Relaited, and to bring it up date took about three months. Is completely unreasonable.

And yes Misty falls has whole lot more then jest four (4) members.


Sory Rook, it's simply how I feel.

Unfair?

I have given you the opportunity to defend your guild against the Zhentarim, but at the price of it being a massive risk. You can bloody the Zhentarim's nose, kill the soldiers that will come, but something that people don't seem to understand is that going up against an organization, be it Myth Drannor, the Zhentarim, or even Cormyr is a foolish notion. They have massive amounts of resources at their disposal. No, you will not automatically win against a Faction, you are not safe from them. There are consequences for every action. If the Jaelre build a fort on Myth Drannor's Doorstep, and don't keep a low profile, they'd be destroyed, they would not just be immune. The same applies here.

It has taken three months because of -this-, dealing with people who scream to the heavens that I'm wronging them. How have I lied, griefed, or otherwise wronged you? I merely made you consider the consequences for your guild's own actions. I offered a full refund of your guild and have been facilitating RP with Elektra. I also have a real job, family to take care of, conferences to prepare for and to go to, all along side of my social life which I cannot neglect for Nwn2.

I will lay out the plan here for all to see:

1. Fzoul and Elektra exchanged letters, as the former was giving the latter a chance to leave without casualties, and that he would give the people of Misty Falls a "clean slate", so they wouldn't be considered enemies of the Zhentarim, at least until they raised their hand against the organization again.

2. If there was a battle, the first force would consist of a lot of mercenaries, a small number of Zhentarim soldiers, and a few of the Skymages. Plans from both sides would be in effect, and the battle could go either way. The perma threat was to drive home the fact that you aren't just dealing with a small attacking force, but with a skilled, small army, who would use advanced tactics, and would leave nothing behind. As I said in the post above, if the tide turns, and you want to get out, you can. If you want to do the heroic last stand, then it will be a heroic last stand. Ultimately, I was reluctant to do the battle in any case, because one side would lose and get upset. I would be accused of predetermining the outcome even if it wasn't predetermined.

3. The guild would get a full refund, and would be able to build elsewhere. Elektra picked out a spot, and RP is planned. She would negotiate for a plot of land near the Dancing Moon. The owners of the Dancing Moon, and the leaders of the Temple of Love would be involved with these negotiations.

4. The Mason's Guild, The Blackwood Company, that helped build the walls of the Misty Falls Keep would make an appearance and help rebuild the new Misty Falls Keep.

Once again, I'll stress that these events were not meant to just take everything from players and leave them with nothing. I'll also stress that this was supposed to make you think, make you consider your actions, and the echoes and ramifications that they have. If you pick a fight with a faction, especially an evil one like the Zhentarim, they will oblige you.

I'm still gonna wade into some zhentarim meat with maya regardless of situation and risk.

Mayas a crazy bitch and she's got alot to settle, if it kills her then so be it, a fitting end to a beloved toon. if there isnt any great deal of interest with involvement of mass battle/combat event i'd still like maya to "buy" misty falls the time to evac and burn it to the ground.

even if an event doesnt occur i'll still have it happen through forum stuff if thats ok Rook.

she might have been an bunghole but mayas still got respect for old friends even if she wasnt a misty fallsmember herself.