The Yath, and prestige classes

Eldritch disciple has been stated as an exception that could get a warlock into the clergy(with a few levels of cleric, of course). I'm curious about the rest of the prestige classes, and their effects, though.

Here are my thoughts:

Shadowbane Stalker: This should be full progression, since it combines assassin, which is one of Lolth's tenets, with cleric. So even though their spell progression would be lessened, I think the fact that they combine Lolth's blessings should be taken into consideration, adding in the fact that they are specializing against the current main foe of the camp, the undead.

Warpriest: I would say this suffers a bit of the same syndrome as favored soul, being more militant than clergy, so probably just the same progression as its spell level(1/2). So assuming you need to be 18th level, if you have this fully up, you would need to be 23rd, etc.

Hospitaler: I would say, for the same reason as warpriest, this should be 1/2 progression.

Child of Night: Honestly, I would think this one would be a disqualifier for the Yath, since it is very closely related to Shar, being Shadow Magic focused and all that. While Lolth would probably embrace the concept of using another deity for strength, I think the Yath would view it as blasphemy at best, full out heresy at worst. I think it would be a fine concept for a rogue priestess, but not a Yath.

Radiant Servant/Doomguide/Sacred Fist/Shining Blade: No chance, obvious reasons.

Black Flame Zealot: I would give this one full progression, as it is an assassin/divine mix as well, despite being half caster progression.

I think that covers them all, and my basic views on them. It can be hard to find information on some prestige classes, but I would like to think that they are taken with some sort of consideration for the rp they will give, and not just for power purposes.

What does everyone think on these ideas? They are entirely my opinions and views, and are not overly strong. I just feel that since we are focusing on what it means to qualify as Yath, we should take a fairly good look at what each of the specialties offer, or take away from, that prospect as well.

"Child of Night: Honestly, I would think this one would be a disqualifier for the Yath, since it is very closely related to Shar, being Shadow Magic focused and all that. While Lolth would probably embrace the concept of using another deity for strength, I think the Yath would view it as blasphemy at best, full out heresy at worst. I think it would be a fine concept for a rogue priestess, but not a Yath."

First even in the PnP description it has nothing to do with Shar. So as a Shar PrC it is not. However Lolth does have darkness as part of her domains. Lolth does have PrC called the Eye of Lolth where the Cleric does utilize hips and sneak attack and also some of the Dread Commando abilites. Also an Eye of Lolth is basically a rogue/cleric.

We have seen others post that this PrC is Shar related but hence there is no link. By the same logic, Shadow Dancers would be considered worshippers of Shar. Not all shadow dancers are worshippers of Shar right?

I think we previously agreed with a certain group of players that all Shadowdancers will henceforth be named Necromancers and treated accordingly.

Lolth does have darkness, and is one of the ones that allows Shadow Magic to be used according to the Tome of Magic, but is certainly not one of the main ones. The fact that their magic becomes so closely tied to the Shadow Weave, while not being part of it, will also be sure to make those sorts of ties to Shar easy to make.

They are allowed in the church as well, you're right, but much like a favored soul would be, I would suspect; a unique circumstance and style. They wouldn't be able to hide that they were special, and because of that, much like favored souls... I highly.... highly doubt the rest of the Yath would see them advance to Yath'tallar. What reason would they have for allowing one that champions a favored element advance only, when they don't even let one favored by the deity herself?

This is a peeve of mine but... Black Flame Zealots are a sect of the church of Kossuth. So called The Order of the Black Flame and is limited to such. Let alone Lolth does not have fire in her domains so its really nul to this point.

I didn't know much about the black flame zealots. In that case, they should probably be mistrusted as well.

Oh and to follow up on Shadow Magic. Shar created and controls it and may block anyone she chooses from using it. If she so cared to do so.

That is the Shadow weave. It is not necessary the same as darkness domain of a cleric.

The Shadow Weave is an arcane force and not divine power, whoever can utilize is able to cats spells where the weave is not not exist, but it shadow weave is there.

The ability to fade into shadows liek a Shadowdancer not necessary means using the Shadow weave, but a follower of Shar or someone gifted by her might have these abilities.

Vermathax wrote:

Lolth does have darkness, and is one of the ones that allows Shadow Magic to be used according to the Tome of Magic, but is certainly not one of the main ones. The fact that their magic becomes so closely tied to the Shadow Weave, while not being part of it, will also be sure to make those sorts of ties to Shar easy to make.

They are allowed in the church as well, you're right, but much like a favored soul would be, I would suspect; a unique circumstance and style. They wouldn't be able to hide that they were special, and because of that, much like favored souls... I highly.... highly doubt the rest of the Yath would see them advance to Yath'tallar. What reason would they have for allowing one that champions a favored element advance only, when they don't even let one favored by the deity herself?

Because FS can't turn undead, can't teach any other cleric spells, and can't use any domains. That is probably why FS's can't be the one that teaches the rest of the temple. Child of Night don't pull from the Shadow Weave. They just have to have access to a spell that uses shadow magic.

"Occupation: An Eye of Lolth

An Eye of Lolth is a priestess of the Spider Queen trained as a spy and a leader. Anywhere the priestesses of Lolth have power or influence, they can be found watching over the doings of the people, searching for threats to the Church - from outsiders to heretics among the drow. When they have identified their targets and deem the time to be right, they lead teams of elite drow warriors to kill or capture their victims. - Paraphrased from Drow of the Underdark"

I don't see anything stating that such a class would be not able to advance, and also being a Child of Night doesn't prevent a character from from turning undead or pulling from domain power.

Being a child of night does, however, prevent a character from being fully drow. It seems like the Eye of Lolth wouldn't do that. Something I'm sure would be a rather large issue among the Yath. The Eye of Lolth is not the class that is involved here, and its specifics are not nearly what the Child of Night's are, and the entry requirements are far more extensive, and expensive, than a CoN.

On this server, there are no Eyes of Lolth. There are Child of Nights, that become "more than what they are", which naturally means "less of what they were". A child of night becomes something other than their race in the end, a being of shadow.

As for turning undead, that is hardly something a Yath'tallar would ever teach anyone, anyway. And I think being a full blooded drow, rather than a dirt-blooded shadow mongrel drow, would be a major plus to the FS in the end. But you're right, Shadow Magic, and the Shadow Weave, are both different, and similar. Shadow Magic is just from the plane of shadow, isn't innately Sharran(though the similarities mean most Shadow Mages turn to the Shadow Weave as well), and can be used by any with ties to darkness.

I don't think you are half drow when you take the PrC. You are a drow, full blood and it doesn't turn you into a half drow or a quarter drow.

But what I do know is the rules for the class have been posted. They have been there for a very long time.

it turns you into a part-shadow. More than mortal is right in the class description, and that is why you get a miss chance suddenly. Partially incorporeal as your body slowly becomes the stuff of darkness.

Frankly, I don't see how any Drow would be treated with anything but respect if they managed to do something, like a Child of Night, to make themself more powerful. Power is everything to the Drow, after all.

My main question is about the requirements for the Yath'sartglin It says blackguard or DC levels are required, but... well, what about straight cleric levels...?

that doesn't subtract from your Drowness, I guess if you were a half demon would you be looked at being a lesser or stronger race?*coughs*Draegoth

If someone's half-demon, wouldn't they have to be a tiefling?

Arjay wrote:

Frankly, I don't see how any Drow would be treated with anything but respect if they managed to do something, like a Child of Night, to make themself more powerful. Power is everything to the Drow, after all.

My main question is about the requirements for the Yath'sartglin It says blackguard or DC levels are required, but... well, what about straight cleric levels...?

Honestly Arjay that is a good question. When this was being created I will say I wasn't thinking of every possibility and now throw ontop some of Kaedrin's PrC I have never even looked at.

A male cleric(Selvetarm)/ or even a combo of cleric/fighter or barbarian I really dont' see it being that much different than a blackguard of Sevetarm. Tell ya what, since Yath'sargtlins are part of the Yath, send this idea too DM Dire and I will discuss it more with him. Since he is familiar with much UD stuff as well. I have been very busy with alot of the building as there is much waiting to either get updated or go in.

Drider, drow and spider. I guess we could call a Child of Night a Dradow? Anyway, the real issue here is, a Child of Night is, in my eyes, far more suspect than a favored soul. Any class that essentially is saying that a drow form isn't good enough, while it can be reasonable and understandable(especially by Lolth since she doesn't really care about the drow specifically), should not be gaining any sort of favor, whatsoever, with the Yath.

And yes... to a xenophobic race, being something other than drow is going to be an issue. Drow with birth defects are considered garbage. A drow that gives themself a defect would likely not be looked upon too highly. And becoming somewhat non-drow on purpose... I don't see that person being given a gold star very likely.

Drow doing things to make themselves more powerful is absolutely IC, and wonderful. But in a Yath society that is determined to keep its own power... well, if turning undead is reason enough to keep someone out, why the heck wouldn't not being a full drow be a reason? Whether or not they are 100% drow by birth... calling a CoN an N'Tel'Quess isn't exactly untrue.

I don't think anything that the CoN does is a defect.

Also it doesn't change your subtype at all. They are still drow. No change in there ECL, nor even of their plane making them a naitive outsider of which they could be banished or even turned.

Still drow, but even more powerful.

It's in lore that a Drow that becomes disfigured should still be all right, provided that they've already gathered enough power to be useful and defend their position. See: the Faceless Master from the first book of the Homeland Trilogy. Given that a Child of Night's abilities make them even more powerful, and aren't a disfigurement, it shouldn't be a problem.

This isn't about getting disfigured. It's about intentionally becoming less of a drow. I think it isn't an issue of power here, but let me try to explain. There are those demon-warlocks that are given great respect in the drow culture, because they are giving in to demons, feeding, breeding, etc, all in the name of power. This is good, and acceptable. This is, however... outside of the Yath.

In the Yath, it's not good enough to be a full drow, favored by Lolth, to be a Yath'tallar. You have to be a pure drow, priestess to do that. The moment you introduce demon blood, shadow blood, any sort of corruption of pure drow... I think you have given every single other Yath all the reason they'll ever need to keep advancement from ever happening. All they need is an excuse to keep you from being it:

If turn undead is a viable excuse... being something other than drow partly would be an effortless one.

I will point out that generally as long as your powerful and if you can keep it a secret then lolths perfectly happy with it
Lolth is more than happy with a half-drow in a position of power. . .for so long as no'one finds out the persons a half-drow
after which lolths more than happy to watch all the other yath jump on you and tear you to pieces

I can appreciate everyones comments in regards to CoN...

But if you are using it as an argument against who should be allowed the title of Yath'tallar lets just say this... Please use the BASE classes as the argument so in other words.. Cleric vs Favored Soul. So when we discuss the merits between Clerics and FS as Yath'tallars as has been discussed by Axe earlier... Yath'tallar are the Hight Priestess and so saying have a duty to train and teach the younger Yath.. for a Favored Soul who does not have the ability to teach these things to their underlings this would make things tough to LEAD their Quellars Yath. They do not have to seek through prayer the blessings of Lolth nor do they gain access to many things a Cleric does. So yes they can be Yath but the presitge of Yath'tallar will be held by a cleric.

Now I will say this there should be only 1 Yath'tallar per Quellar Yath and then many Yathrin and Yath'abban under them... Yath'tallar is a House masters position and you dont see houses with 2 Weapon Masters... so a house only has one Yath'tallar and if a younger Yathrin wishes it then they should challenge the current Yath'tallar and take it from them.

Vermathax you bring up some good points but again the CoN prestige does naut change you from being Drow.. it does:

Cloak of Shadows: Your flesh takes on a hazy, almost translucent hue, granting a bonus equal to your child of night level on Hide checks. At 6th level you become immune to poisons and diseases. At 8th level, your form permanently becomes hazy and you continually have a blur effect (20% concealment).

No where does the class say you are no longer a Drow as some prestige classes do change you from what you were to something all together different - Forest Master you are now considered a Plant.

Arjay I love the idea of expanding the Yath'sargtlin more to include things and will take it up with Axe.. but as long as the Yath'sargtlin has a melee flavor to it so levels of Some type of Melee (Fighter, Barb and Hexblade) I think it works oh and if cleric it will be mandatory Seveltarm since Lolth does not have any Male clerics

For the stipulation that it is believed that turn undead IS more of an issue than having a racial flaw:
If turn undead is really a vital thing to the Yath, why not make that the requirement, by the way? If someone isn't able to turn, say, a level 18 or 19 undead creature, they can't be a Yath'tallar. I mean... having a pathetic turning ability is essentially the same as not having one, in the end.

As for the comments about not changing your race: You're right, it doesn't change your racial subtype. But Child of Night DOES give you racial traits that are not inherent to your natural race. It blends whatever corporeal form you have with darkness. It may not be enough to change a racial subtype, but enough to cause issues with the Yath? Certainly.

As for the discussion of base class, and what can be taught, there is a very serious line there: At what point, has a character abandoned the things that could be taught? Most prestige classes abandon turn undead, and all of the basic teachings that would be needed to teach the younger Yath. This would leave a Yath'tallar at a sub-par level for such teachings, unable to keep up with even the pure Yathrin, or in some cases, Yath'abban at such duties.

I think Child of Night could/should go the same route as shadowbane stalker.

Darkness is one of Lolth's 'pillars of faith' as well, and CoN want to become darkness, in essence. They don't "have" to be shadowcasters..I think that's explained in the Tome of Magic.

My character is a CoN, and he goes on about how darkness is Lolth's gift to her children...he's just more gifted than the rest

Verm I think you are looking at Child of Night purely as a PrC, and not a facet of a characters growth. In this game in which we roleplay classes and PrC's into a larger picture- thus forming a unique identity, it is possibly disingenuous to compare the manner of a person's worship to an incorporation of a PrC that gives them a larger set of skills based off of the original manner of worship. It does not affect where their worship comes from or change an aspect of how they worship. Rather it incorporates new abilities. Nothing is lost, only gained.

If this is about the argument about Favored Souls, then I think it is important to understand why we have a clerical based worship structure: It is because the Clerics(in this case Drow Females) carry the religion. Not because of the source of power from which they draw, but the collective manner in which they draw it as it relates to the society in general. Their worship is fluid and adjustable and improvisational and more importantly INCLUSIVE via the need to pray, and we all know prayer is flashier in larger groups.

I don't have a huge problem with FS, truthfully I roll one that would be considered a bit of an aberration myself. But the Drow society has tenets, and they include the (in this case valid)mistrust of FS and we have chosen to observe this in the lore of this server, as is concurrent with most lore. Is this partially because they have a bit more of a "Nuker" quality to their bearing that is prone to imbalance? Most probably yes. But that does not matter because you can play one- the thing is you just have to face a much larger battle for validation because of the FLAWS that your manner of worship introduces into the Drow society.

We all know that males could easily rp not being subservient. Males and females have the same stats, the only thing preventing the change is that we have chosen for the most part to obey popular lore for the reason of "it gives us a fun and interesting framework off of which to add to the D&D universe".

That all being said I think that most things you said are pretty applicable and correct, but possibly unnecessary to think hard about. We should not be looking at class sheets whenever possible, as this will take away from our ability to immerse ourselves.

The important thing is that you
A: add to the rp of the server making more fun for everyone and
B: Make sure your rp is valid along the confirmed lore lines or face the rp consequences with your head held high.