Proposed Changes to Drow Ranks and Requlations

gandruff wrote:

Maybe make it a requirement for cleric spellcasting to set up a noble quellar but not for making a merchant quellar?

This would be in line with the server's history, but if we want to consult the lore, it is not necessary for an Illharess to be a member of the yath (aka a divine spell caster) to be an Illharess - BUT any Illharess who is not a member of the yath should expect to be treated as a second class citizen in comparison to another Illharessen who is of the yath. Being a non-yath Illharess would not give that character any more right to disobey a yathrin, yath'taller or the Ul'ath'taller, becuase in the end, it is the church that has final say. Furthermore the members of a non-yath lead house will have to accept that they will suffer that same lesser status as well as be under continuous suspension of being heretics due to the perceived 'weakness' of not having a divine caster as their matron.

Lolthite society is a theology - rule by religion - so those who are not an 'up standing member of the faith' cannot rise to the heights of those who are of the faith. In other words, you will never be an Arch Bishop if you are a Unitarian Universalist, no matter how much PvP damage you might be able to lay out. After all, do you really think the Pope is going to throw down and win a boxing match? LOL he wins be default, he's the firgging Pope!).

This is why, in the past, to simplify the situation, those houses who were not ruled by a yarthrin Illharess were relegated to not being a noble house.

I would like to point out, for all of those saying we don't need a mechanical requirement, that ICly, it would be KNOWN who was a yath and who wasn't. A priestess would have to study for decades to reach the point where they could be a high priestess, learning the inner workings of the church of Lolth. It's why favored souls walk such a tenuous line, they have the power, but none of the learning that a cleric would have... in other words, they can cast the spells, but they don't have the wisdom that comes with learning the ways of Lolth.

The mechanical requirements represent the way of allowing the other priestesses to not look like fools for being duped by a pretender while at the same time allowing for people to play their little games of masquerading as priestesses without breaking rule 6. If you want to allow for favored souls to pass off as priestesses for high priestess or Illharess? I'd say put down a wisdom score requirement. If you want to allow non-priestesses to try to fake it? I'd say to put a bluff/perform score requirement in place.

There are a lot of people who haven't been around long enough to remember, but there were a LOT of problems centering around non-yath led quellar. There really do need to be safeguards in place in a setting where people can't be permakilled when they would have been gutted by the Yath early in their creation.

As for the poll, I voted no. There are simply too many points being voted on to give it a blanket 'yes' or 'no.'

Quote :

There really do need to be safeguards in place in a setting where people can't be permakilled when they would have been gutted by the Yath early in their creation.

If this were in Mezo or one of the other great Lolthite cities then Arjay would be spot on in this quote. The fact is, that the camp is a dirty little outpost hanging on to life in the middle of no where. The underdark is a big place if we are talking about assassination and people not making it early in their creation.

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The mechanical requirements represent the way of allowing the other priestesses to not look like fools for being duped by a pretender while at the same time allowing for people to play their little games of masquerading as priestesses without breaking rule 6

This is actually a startlingly good way to look at it.

If there is going to be a rule then I really wish the DM's would just dictate it. Tell me what my limits for rp are so I can play some where in the middle. It seems to me that when we have all this ambiguity then there is so much drama and general upset.

alright then folks, so feel free to write up what you think good requirements are, and the ones that I see are mentioned alot will be taken into DM Land and discussed, again thanks for working with me and helping

i would have thought in any Drow city or society where Lolth was pre-eminent that to be an Ilharess meant you would at least be a yathrin and in favour with Lolth. any Quellar that didnt go this route would be inviting disaster as all the other Quellar would gang up against it

in those cities merchant or mercenary quellar would be the place for non Yath leaders

in other cities where the power is more distributed and not dominated by the Yath perhaps a powerful female Faern could be an Ilharess or a warrior or warlock

the Camp and environs is very Lolth and Yath dominated and any Quellar without a powerful Yath Ilharess would regarded as of lesser level

i cant imagine the Camp Ulath'taller being happy and working well with a non Yath Ilharess

alright so from this we have come up with it seems:

Illharess Can be any class

A Trade/Merc House will have alot easyer time becomming considered a noble house is the Illharess is apart of the yath

Noble Illharesses will be taken more seriously if they apart of the Yath

The Leadership feat is not required

??

We could say that an Illharess does not necessarily need to have cleric levels (or any other divine), but they do need education in the Yath.

General question:

what different types of 'Quellar' are there? and what is the hierarchy in a Lolth dominated society?

1. Noble Quellar
2. Merchant Quellar
3. Others (Mercenary or other trade organisations?)

i presume?

Two main kinds of quellar
Noble and merchant.
Think noble as in at the top, centre of society they are often like mini settlements within a drow city each with their own guards and all the like.
Merchant quellars are houses where they do the menial tasks or the trading with outside groups that the nobles see as below them So interacting with other races, trading ect ect and as such have much less strict upon how they are structured and governed.


I'd suggest for noble quellars making a requirement of filling at least 3 of the strands of the roles (yath, sargtlin, faern, ect)

I'd also make a point of putting in that any Illharess, noble or merchant, who isn't Yath has to defer to the Yath on points of faith. Yes, this does put the Illharess in an unenviable position. However, being a non-Yath Illharess should be an unenviable position.

I think that there should be mechanical guides in place for faking being a cleric. If a Favored Soul wants to pass themselves off as clergy in order to get ranking, there should be a minimum wisdom requirement, I think (14 to be yathrin, 16 if you want to rise higher) and a bluff skill requirement. The wisdom score should allow them to actually be learned in the church (aka: have attended the training for clerics), the bluff score should let them hide the source of their power.

If you want to flat-out fake being a divine caster (use of scrolls, selective use of spells, wands, etc), then I definitely think there should be a high bluff skill requirement and/or a perform skill requirement. The same applies if you are a divine caster, but not of Lolth and want to remain in the camp/house.

I agree with the above mentioned.

I find it funny that the bluff roll even got mentioned... I played on here for over a year with Devious, who does not worship Lloth, just waiting for anyone to ask about it. It never happened. I even hinted to several people to his lack of faith by saying "I only am devoted to profit", as well as the fact that no one has ever heard the all to familiar "lloth tlu malla" escape his lips.

Point being, that I agree with the bluff roll thing, but I hope you don't mean they have to roll it every time they cast a spell, or speak of lloth. It should be rolled if others are observant enough to notice the oddities and inquire about where her power comes from etc...

Not only that, but since we are playing a role, and not supposed to be using our RL intelligence, then shouldn't the accuser have to roll a spot or intelligence check to see if they are smart or observant enough to catch them not casting or summoning w/o using a wand or scroll?

I think that it's something that's a standing skill... like if you have a high spellcraft, it can be assumed that yes, you do know how various common magical things work. If you're putting on a charade like this, a DM can just take a peek and see that yes, this character's got ten or so ranks in bluff or perform. Because let's face it, giving a roll just begs for metagaming, and we all know it.

Honestly, I think that there are probably a lot of Drow that only give lip service to Lolth. However, if they aren't actively acting against the Lolthites, I don't see a reason for a bluff roll or much investment (for example the not-quite-devout Vhaeraunite who doesn't give a damn about Lolth, but hey, this is his home, he's not going to rock the boat because he's not a zealot). They aren't really actively lying, they're just lying low. Clerics are another thing, though, because technically every time they cast a spell they're actively lying about their faith if they're playing off as Yath.

I believe it was said a while back that you can work out a clerics faith by listening to their spells (as they are essentially verbal requests to the diety for spells) and the only god that allows her clerics to pretend to worship another faith even in casting was shar

In the pnp game it depends on which spell. Some are verbal, some use hand gestures, and some use both. I don't know if it's the same here, but I think the scroll thing would be a dead giveaway.

devious78 wrote:

I find it funny that the bluff roll even got mentioned... I played on here for over a year with Devious, who does not worship Lloth, just waiting for anyone to ask about it. It never happened. I even hinted to several people to his lack of faith by saying "I only am devoted to profit", as well as the fact that no one has ever heard the all to familiar "lloth tlu malla" escape his lips.

I would wager the percentage of drow players that have Lolth as their patron is lower then you think.

I agree that there are quite a few non llothite drow. I just found it funny because not only was I not ever questioned, but I even ascended to the rank velg'larn with Zau'Afin, and then betrayed them to ascend even further in rank to qu'el'velguk in Dabel'kith... Ahhh... Chaos

Ok so can one of you lovely player helpers post up the out come of this thread and what has been agreed on and ill post it up in dm land when I get home from work, is there anything else you lovely underdark players want to discuss?

The clear answer to having "Leadership" as a required feat for being a Matron Mother is a big no.



Summing up the loose ends, this is what we get from players


8 people agree that an Ilharess needs to have influence enough to construct the web of chaos, and not any mechanical requirements. Protests and discussions are below, where the red comment is

4 people stand in this opinion:

gandruff wrote:

I'm not sure making a would-be quellar wait what would potentially be over a year before they can actually hold any propper influence that inviting for people to create new ones (a noble quellar will always be able to overrule a merchant one)

No protests here.

2 people dislike the level requirement for an ilharess. This has only been very briefly discussed, so no obvious protests.

1 person stands on this statement:

Lord Droke wrote:

I don't think the Matron should loose her vote. This will enable the Matron to have pretty much no voice with in the Yath. A Priestess Matron is kind of like a Yath'tellar or Yathrin with an army backing her, she should have some clout. My suggestion would be something more along the lines of giving the Matron 3 votes, 1 for her and 2 for her Yath'tellar. This way in most circumstances the Matron and the Yath'tellar vote as one, but in an extreme case where the Yath'tellar feels the Matron is steering the house out of Lolth's favor, she can vote against the Matron and overrule her by 2 to 1. This may also come in hand in instances where the church itself (not lolth) desires one thing and the house desires another. In this case the Yath'ellar can choose to split her vote between church and state (the house). This also does not render the house yath itself powerless if the Yath'tellar is not around and a vote is held. I don't mean if the Yath'tellar is taking a break, by saying she is not around either, Votes on punishment and such should be aloud to be fluid and spontaneous.

This has not been discussed further.

4 people believe that Matron Mothers of Noble houses need to be in the favor of Lolth (discussion was about whether or not Matron Mothers had to take divine classes). In the light of this, 3 people are saying that matron mothers at least need to appear to be a Yath, if they are trying to set up a noble house. Agreement in the discussion, no obvious protest.

1 person proposes matron mothers at least have to be able to cast 3rd level divine spells, as a suggested compromise. ;; 1 person opposes this. This requires more discussion.

4 people propose skill and ability requirements for matron mothers who are not in the Yath. Stated here:

Arjay wrote:

The mechanical requirements represent the way of allowing the other priestesses to not look like fools for being duped by a pretender while at the same time allowing for people to play their little games of masquerading as priestesses without breaking rule 6. If you want to allow for favored souls to pass off as priestesses for high priestess or Illharess? I'd say put down a wisdom score requirement. If you want to allow non-priestesses to try to fake it? I'd say to put a bluff/perform score requirement in place.

8 people disagree with this, as mentioned above in red

1 person believes this.

Arjay wrote:

There really do need to be safeguards in place in a setting where people can't be permakilled when they would have been gutted by the Yath early in their creation.

1 person has disagreed to this in discussion. This requires more discussion.

2 people believe that any Illharess, noble or merchant, who isn't Yath has to defer to the Yath on points of faith. (this is almost identical to the suggestion that requires Ilharesses to have education in the Yath) Will possibly need more discussion.


Feel free to edit this, Defiler, if you see any mistakes or the lack of something that may need to be added.

alright first post update.

Voted no, and here is why.

Quote :

A-J:

This essentially seems to requires to have 5 players active. It also seems to force players who are not ready to be in such high positions into them if those positions are vacant. Also entirely to vague in certain areas, such as differentiating between merchant and noble house and lacking consideration of societal norms such as love discrimination.

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K - There Can only be one Yathtaller in an Qu'ellar, The illharess if a yathrin can challenge her own Yathtaller for her rank, or if she was a Yathtaller to start with she can keep her Yathtaller title (and the respouncibiltys & power)

Never have and never will agree with this.
There are many examples of High Priestesses throughout the books and the source materials that show houses can have more than one high priestess. There is often a single high priestess who runs the house priesthood and manages the house temple, but others in the house can and often do hold the “temple” rank of High Priestess. House Baenre has several, for example, but only one of them manages the temple and house Yath.

Quote :

L - Becoming a Illharess does not automaticly entile you to a seat on the Council and that importent vote in Illthiri matters however, you a permitted to win/take a seat. (There is now a set number of seats on the council, eight. if you wish a seat, if one is empty you can petition the council and they will vote on your worthyness, or can simply challenge a seat holder.

Not sure of this. It enables non nobility to sit in seats of governmental power. Would need further details on a counsel set up before I came to a decision.

Quote :

M - A illharess who is apart of the Yath still needs to perform her Dutys or be held accountable by the Yath Council.

A ilharess does her duty to the Yath by being a priestess but also by being Matron. Providing the church with military aid and fresh priestesses. While the basics of this are acceptable, the not so basic is not. Daily ritual and such sure, a cleric matron is a cleric after all, but Leaders should not be seen as weak in drow society. The Matron who bows to a Yathrin of another house shows that the Yathrin is above her and thus her house. This has the potential of throwing off the traditional balance of power that make drow society tick

Lord Droke wrote:

Voted no, and here is why.

Quote :

A-J:

This essentially seems to requires to have 5 players active. It also seems to force players who are not ready to be in such high positions into them if those positions are vacant. Also entirely to vague in certain areas, such as differentiating between merchant and noble house and lacking consideration of societal norms such as love discrimination.

I mean for them to be offically considered a group, players go active and in active often so I would never hold that agienst a group,

Quote :

K - There Can only be one Yathtaller in an Qu'ellar, The illharess if a yathrin can challenge her own Yathtaller for her rank, or if she was a Yathtaller to start with she can keep her Yathtaller title (and the respouncibiltys & power)

Never have and never will agree with this.
There are many examples of High Priestesses throughout the books and the source materials that show houses can have more than one high priestess. There is often a single high priestess who runs the house priesthood and manages the house temple, but others in the house can and often do hold the “temple” rank of High Priestess. House Baenre has several, for example, but only one of them manages the temple and house Yath.

I always though there was only ever one yathtaller in any temple, mm if its not the case then fair enough, thanks for correcting me

Quote :

L - Becoming a Illharess does not automaticly entile you to a seat on the Council and that importent vote in Illthiri matters however, you a permitted to win/take a seat. (There is now a set number of seats on the council, eight. if you wish a seat, if one is empty you can petition the council and they will vote on your worthyness, or can simply challenge a seat holder.

Not sure of this. It enables non nobility to sit in seats of governmental power. Would need further details on a counsel set up before I came to a decision.

The counssil of my imagining is:

The Head of the Spider: The Ulath'Taller
The Fangs of the Spider: The Ulathtallers Personal Assasins who you will very very very rare if ever meet.
The Body of the Spider: The Houses
The Legs of the Spider: The Seats Avaiable.

My idea is to give you players the power to goven yourselves, while yes it might be possible for a none yath to join, it would be up to you players on the council and I imagine that person would be a very special case.

Quote :

M - A illharess who is apart of the Yath still needs to perform her Dutys or be held accountable by the Yath Council.

A ilharess does her duty to the Yath by being a priestess but also by being Matron. Providing the church with military aid and fresh priestesses. While the basics of this are acceptable, the not so basic is not. Daily ritual and such sure, a cleric matron is a cleric after all, but Leaders should not be seen as weak in drow society. The Matron who bows to a Yathrin of another house shows that the Yathrin is above her and thus her house. This has the potential of throwing off the traditional balance of power that make drow society tick

I had not foreseen that, good call, how would you word it, if you dont mind me asking?

and thankyou very much for replying if the other two would do the same that would be great

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Quote:
M - A illharess who is apart of the Yath still needs to perform her Dutys or be held accountable by the Yath Council.

A ilharess does her duty to the Yath by being a priestess but also by being Matron. Providing the church with military aid and fresh priestesses. While the basics of this are acceptable, the not so basic is not. Daily ritual and such sure, a cleric matron is a cleric after all, but Leaders should not be seen as weak in drow society. The Matron who bows to a Yathrin of another house shows that the Yathrin is above her and thus her house. This has the potential of throwing off the traditional balance of power that make drow society tick


I had not foreseen that, good call, how would you word it, if you dont mind me asking?

Honestly, with out the rule that there can only be 1 High Priestess, much of this is solved. Here is my basic idea:

The temple chooses temple rank. Yath'tellar, Yathrin, Yath'abban.

The Matron of a house choose which Yath'tellar is in charge of her house Yath. That Yath'tellar is considered the Obok Yath'tellar (title is irrelevant here, it's just to differentiate between a typical Yath'tellar and a House's Temple head). The Obok Yath'tellar commands a little more respect than other Yath'tellars.

Matron can be Yath'tellar should she achieve it in the eyes of the church.

The only way to become Yath'tellar is by assassinating another Yath'tellar or through and extreme act of faith (characters will of course have to meet the requirements as well). An example of an extreme act of faith could be, for an example, leading a raid on a temple of a surface god then desecrating it. Such an event would need to be DM'd sanctioned on both the surface raid level and on the ascension level. Even then the character may not achieve High Priestess, it is ultimately upto the counsel. Rather than limit the amount of Yath'tellars I suggest we just make it extremely hard to achieve.

Thats pretty sums up what I was hoping to achive, and summed up a lot better than I could have

as for the seats, the limited eight seats is more a ic call of the Ulathtaller than a ooc dm decided thingy. I think I will be implmenting what you mentioned above.

Thanks again