DM Ruling on

And I have heard you mention it ic.

Yes but Seveltarm is one of the only other Drow gods that Lolth accepts..since he is her swordarm.

If you ask any of the Yath he is the Rothe of Lolth..

So worshiping Seveltarm is not a bad thing.

But since I play that I get all my goodies from him *since I am not a divine caster but a Blackguard* any silence from Lolth would not affect me since Seveltarm grants me my goodies.

And you are right I have never hid the fact that my god is Seveltarm.. I am quite happy to say such.. but I obey the edicts of the Yath as my god does so do I.

Then in that right, you are not a yath'sartlin, being that that is a position for a lloth worshiping male... You would be a blackguard of selvetarm.

By the way, you do not follow the edicts of lloth, seeing as you have on several occasions insulted ranking females. Lloth demands that all males show the proper respect to any ranking female, not just the yath.

I have played a yath'sartlin, a d have done much research in that class. And being the equivalent to a paladin, if you go against the tenants of your faith, you lose that class and become just another fighter... That is if lloth doesn't turn you into a drider. Which I think would be an awesome twist if it happened to your pc, as well as great rp.

Devious as always appreciate your comments but below is the Dalelands lore for Yath'sargtlin. I have bolded the part about Seveltarm so that we can be on the same page in regards to this topic.



Yath'sargtlin


Requirements: 5 levels of black guard or Divine Champion

The Yath’sargtlin is a blackguard of Lolth, a warrior committed to the furtherance of their own religion and the extermination or subjugation of others. This is the highest rank that even a male can hold in the Yath and are the only ones allowed into the Yath without fear of death without an accompanying Yathrin.

Yath’sargtlinen are required to bow to members of all of the Yath. The Yath’sargtlin should bow to higher-ranking members of allied Drow guilds and accord them the same respect as their own superiors. . The directives of ranking members of the Yath may supercede the orders of the secular if the ordering member of the Yath is of equal or higher rank than the secular member.

Now I read that as Allied.. in no way would I say I have any alliegance to the Ilharess and since she is not Yath the others do not pertain to my treatment of her. I would like any to tell me that I have never treated a member of the Yath with all due respect. As well since before I recieved Yath'sargtlin I was the Quel'saruk of an opposing Qu'ellar and am one of the Academy Leaders in the Magthere which I will remind all was asked of me by both the Yath and Qu'ellars. So in my own rights have certain titles. And only to recent has Dabel'kith finally have a new Quel'saruk mind you one that did not beat me.

The blackguard of Lolth serves the Yath, and they are prepared to lay down their own life, as well as that of heretics, in the pursuit of Yath goals. Yath’sargtlinen are deeply devout, and should be intimate with our religion and act as an example of commitment to Lolth or Selvetarm. A mortal imbued with fiendish cruelty, the Yath’sargtlin is a knight most foul. This unholy warrior is steeped in the divine energy of Lolth or Selvetarm, self-appointed Champion of Lolth. Consort of demons and demonic arachnids, the Yath’sargtlin is hated and feared by all, especially other male drow who are jealous of the heights of power to which he has risen. Yath’sargtlin must make an unholy pledge to Lolth or Selvetarm.

And as to Drider if you would like to volunteer yourself you are more than welcome I am not quiet done yet with Edrik. and please point me in the direction that a Yath'sargtlin is like a paladin and loses his abilities. Not being confrontational but would like to see your sources so that I can play the class better.

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't any noble female outrank any male no matter what rank the male achieves?

Thanks for showing me the fact that it can be of lloth or selvetarm, I must have skimmed over that part.

And unless they have changed it, the blackguard class was created so that evil allignments could have paladins also, the only difference is some of the spells they earn

Blackguards are dedicated champions of evil; mechanically, they are
similar to reverse Paladins in many ways. Some older versions of the
game included "Anti-Paladins," which are similar. Blackguards may be of
any evil alignment; fallen Paladin Blackguards gain additional abilities. from 3.5 DM manual

That is the point of the discussion... and below are my perceptions and open for debate

According to lore most Qu'ellars of true power is because their matron is of the Yath since that is truely the only way to have power to be able to influence things... the best Nil'kah could offer under lore mind you since here we get to play it differently would be a Merchant house.. one with power but she could not influence things with the Yath since she is not Yath.

In Dalelands since we play a little by the rule of might is right she can throw that around a bit more and influence the UD. And no you are not correct about Females outrank males... females advancement is better and they can obtain the highest ranks of power but if a female sargtlin mouths off to a Male Sutrino she does not get a free ticket because she is female the Sutrino can beat her.. and even kill her since he has the power. Nobility may elevate the rank of the female or male so that if tha same female Sargtlin was a noble.. the Sutrino might naut or might since a female sargtlin is a failure in the eyes of Lolth since she is not of the divine.

We play Drow we dance in the grey moving and using those to our advantage.. the issue is no one ever stays dead.. so makes this type of thing harder sometimes so one has to be careful.

I hear ya, and far be it from me to tell anyone how to rp their pc. I have researched all the points you have made and see where you are coming from. It just irritates me that WOTC has totally contradicted itself on so many levels that it fuels debates like these. No hard feelings toward you at all, in fact I enjoy my rp with ya, I am just getting sick of the rules stating one thing and then completely going the other way a moment later.

I'm thinking that Devious is going to become a loner, and stick with the things he loves most... chaos and profit. I'm tired of being told one thing and then shown another.

I suppose that is why they asked for a DM ruling, it is their server after all, and as I have said there are to many contradictions.

If the Qu'ellar and illharess is the the problem.

I still guess a Yath'sargtlin( being male and you say more the yath's sword then voice of Llolth) as below a illharess, priestess or not but the Yath'sargtlin is above Yath'abban (priestess in training. Hereby not a true voice of Llolth yet ). A yath'taller might in Nil'kah case have more say but let not forget it house buisness we talk about. Interfereing or messing with a house normal is done with a care unless the outsider can rally just as much strength and power to oppose the entire house. The only easy able to mess with a house to claim Llolth's will is the Ulath’tallar .

Now if it was true, a house have a priestess or high priestess within the rank to serve as the advicer and voice of Lloth to the Illharess.

Now in theory i will agree if the Illharess is not a priestess then her influence is worse and the house most likely be seen as a merchent house but again the illharess is the front figure to a entire house and should not be taken lighty.

oh my brain hurt..this so hard to understand.

It may not be wise to confront a Ilharess, but the Yath is above all non yath. Thats about it.

But males have to show respect to all ranking females, and a yath'sargtlin is not a true member of the yath, but a highly privileged male... so this is one of those contradictions, which is why it needs a DM ruling. It does no good to keep debating it. so until I hear a DM say a Yath'sargtlin can talk smack and disrespect any ranking female without direct orders from a ranking yath, I will not rp that he is a yath'sargtlin at all, and Devious will show him no respect ig... and... I'm done.

The Yath’sargtlin is a blackguard of Lolth, a warrior committed to the

furtherance of their own religion and the extermination or subjugation

of others. ///This is the highest rank that even a male can hold in the

Yath and are the only ones allowed into the Yath/// without fear of death

without an accompanying Yathrin.


The Yath'Sargtlin is of the Yath. Unless your house is a noble house, he's still above a non-yath. We dont need a GM in this situation.

What is needed, is a clear cut on the camp hierarchy. As in War of the Spider Queen, house Baenre ruled the city and the Arach-Tinilith, thus the Ilharess of Baenre was above the Arach-Tinilith, and obeyed by all in the city. A random house was not going to order the Arach-Tinilith around, or the leaders of other institutes, unless they were too, high ranking member of the Arach-Tinilith.

Like I said, a contradiction... You are right, but an illharess can only be questioned by the yathtallar. And in llothite dogma, NO male can out rank a female. Yes he is allowed in the yath, but he doesn't get to lead prayers, he is the sword of the yath, not the voice.

I mean a yochlol is not of the yath, so do you think in lloths eyes a male out ranks them? I didn't say the non-yath could order him around, only that he is supposed to respect her, bow and so forth. Then he can plot and scheme all he wants behind her back, but at least put on a good fake face.

And Zau'Afin is a noble house, it isn't our fault our illharess was banned by the DMs. So our current illharess was a good option, being that she is online more often than the rest of us.

devious78 wrote:

Like I said, a contradiction... You are right, but an illharess can only be questioned by the yathtallar. And in llothite dogma, NO male can out rank a female. Yes he is allowed in the yath, but he doesn't get to lead prayers, he is the sword of the yath, not the voice.

A male can outrank a female any day of the week. Outrank = being of higher rank. A archmage can kick an apprentice female mage in the face, and nothing will happen to him. When a male outrank a female, he's above her, end of. Its the call of his superiors to decide if he has to be punished or not.

Yochlol are creatures of Lloth, they are not of the Yath but they deserve the outmost respect from anyone. The same way spiders are not of the Yath, but are sacred animals, they are respected.

And no, its not your fault if your Ilharess was banned. But the result, rply, is still a non yath commanding it, and should be rped as such.

You have obviously missed my point. As I have said... I'm done debating it.

The issue of a defined and universal ranking structure continues to come up. Over a month ago Dabel'kith was revamping out ranking and Axe asked us to come up with something Zau'afin agreed on so that we have something for all the UD and not something different for each house.

We sent it to Pinto for her opinion but have not hear back.
I will send it to Nil as well.

Kiira

Thank you everyone for all the good converstations.

After some discussion in game as well as out.. there will be some RP to be had that involves this discussion coming soon.

I appreciate eveyones input and hope that we can all move forward in the UD and put this behind us.

Thank you
Shadow

yeah it is alot easier for me as a DM if you all agree on stuff together

As far as Pinto's Yath'tallar Eclav I am not sure the status either. I have seen them ususally sign off when I come on. So don't know if I am just having bad timing or what.

We are moving forward but I would like to point out something and perhaps this will help others understand. THe write up we all use in regards to the Yath'sargtlin is in regards to the Rankings and status in a Qu'ellar... Meaning yes a Yath'sargtlin of a House should obey the Secular of their House.... but what of those that do not belong to the Qu'ellar. What of those that belong to another Qu'ellar or the Yath.

I dont feel an Ilharess can order around anyone not of their own Qu'ellar that would be disrespecting the Ilharess of another house and would lead to many battles... They are the Matron of their House.. and does not give them rites to other Qu'ellars or to the property of others.

Just my thoughts.

Shadow

Quote :

I dont feel an Ilharess can order around anyone not of their own Qu'ellar that would be disrespecting the Ilharess of another house and would lead to many battles... They are the Matron of their House.. and does not give them rites to other Qu'ellars or to the property of others.

I would say you are right. But a Illharess still can act and be alove commoners who not part of a noble house. Toward another noble house yeah ..doing anything would risk a house war and normal a thing not done in the open. cloak'n'dagger stuff

I agree with that as well.

I should have mentioned that is why one would seek the joining of a Qu'ellar so that it offers protection like this.

If you are unhoused then yes you are in danger of this.

what if yath but no in qu'ellar? Still in danger?

Why, you're always in danger as a drow