Yathrin? Yath'tallar? How do you become them?

Inspired by a discussion in guild chat today. What, exactly, ARE the requirements to pass from Yathrin to Yath'tallar? There seems to be a bit of confusion about it.

Erm... not sure... really. I mean the religion of the Lolth lacks a lot of description, as most of the religions in game, right?

I would say the camp might not necessary keep a very traditional approach and the old rituals of hundreds years of the temple: first these Qu'ellars are new 0 formed after the lost of the city, second this is after the silence of Lolth which might changed a few customs.

In the end the doctrine of Lolth (the strong survives and eats the weak) might quite support Li'Neer's claim, she defeated a Yath'tallar, but then if a none yath member would do... then would they accept her as a Yath'tallar?

I do think this Ic event would create a great (religious) debate inside of the yath in the camp. I think the other members acceptance of this claim is as important as the defeat. They might just outcast her attacking one in higher status (if anyone still would support a failed Yath'tallar .

I believe it is more RP then level. But as quoted
below, Yathrin have to be mid to high ranged cleric, favored soul, or Eldrich
Disciple. Yath’Tallar can only be a high
level cleric.

It the past is was a major thing to become Yathrin. I have seen the Yath
force Yath’abbens to capture a kivvil and bring them down to sacrifice.
This is a rite called the blooding.
I've also seen people just made Yathrin or Yath’Tallar but I think there needs
to be a fairly sizable ceremony associated with it IMHO.






From Axe's post https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t2052-rank-stations-progression-in-the-qu-ellar-of-lolth-work-in-progress?highlight=favoured+soul+lolth

Quote :

Priestess / Yathrin:
In truth these members belong more to the Church, than to the House. A
Priestess of Lolth is not just a divine caster of Lolth. A Priestess is a
divine caster who has dedicated her life to that of the Church of Lolth
and in doing so she gains great station, power and influence through
the Church. This choice also means she is loyal to Lolth, the Church,
and the greater good of the drow as a whole, before the House and her
own schemes. They are respected out of fear by all House members,
Masters, Members, and sometimes even by the Matron herself. Their
function in the House is to ensure complete conviction in Lolth and her
doctrines, failure to do so will result in torture, tests and ultimately
death. None but the Matron can dispute the word of the Priestesses of
her own House. There is often an unspoken dispute between the Matron and
the Priestesses of Lolth, as the Matron’s concern is that of her own
House whereas the Priestesses of Lolth must think of the community and
race as a whole.

Requirements:
- Female
- Priestess of the
Church of Lolth Cleric, (we do not acknowledge the FS as a cleric of Lolth here )
Special:
The Highest authority is the Reverend Mother of the Church, not the Matron Mother of their House. Even as Initiates these
must still be referred to as Yath'abban / Yathrin / Yath'tallar / Ulath'tallar, as this title is
given by the Church of Lolth, not the House.
Advancement:
- A member of the House must meet the demands of the High Priestess to be named a Priestess of the House.

and

Quote :

High Priestess / Yathtallar

The High Priestess is a title within the House and not of the Church. The

High Priestess serves as the Matron’s advisor in all matters religious

whether the Matron likes it or not, and even a powerful Matron should

think carefully about the consequences of her actions, should she choose

to go against the High Priestess counsel on such matters. The High

Priestess leads all the Priestesses of the House and she is responsible

for ensuring all within the House is loyal to the Spider, even (if not

especially) the Matron Mother can be subjected to such suspicions by the

High Priestess though such an investigation must run its course in the

most subtle fashion. If the Matron Mother is away, the High Priestess

often steps in to temporarily fill the void.

Requirements:

- Female

- Priestess of Lolth


Special: The Highest authority is the Reverend Mother of the Church of Lolth, not the Matron Mother of their House.

Advancement: To become High Priestess you must

- Gain the favour of either the Matron or have 2/3 of her daughters support

- Defeat the current High Priestess in combat.


In most cases the Matron Mother will decide who has enough favour with her

House to get a position and you will be compared to the current House

Master you would wish to replace. But if the Matron’s daughters start

becoming more influential they can push their own candidates into the

House. A strong and political skilled Matron will not allow this sort of

undermining of her authority and work around it, but if you can get

away with it you can get away with it. This allows an option for the

daughters to try and undermine the ruling Matrons authority. However it

is quite likely to end badly for both the new Master candidate and the

daughters, if they do not tread carefully.

If a Master leaves without notice on the board for a week, a temporary replacement will be

appointed by the ruling Matron Mother in his stead. If no further notice

is given within another week the replacement takes this position and

keeps it even if the Master returns in the third week.

If you do give a notice on the board, a replacement will be appointed to take over in

the time you are gone. If you are not back within a week after you

should have returned and no notice is given, the replacement gets the

position. The old master will get the chance of earning it back just

like any other.

Quote :

Amendment-

Yath'abban(temple associates): low level Cleric, low level Favored Soul, low level Eldrich Disciple, any level Female Black Guard or Female Divine Champion
Yathrin (priestess): mid to high ranged Cleric, Favored Soul, Eldrich Disciple
Yath'tallar(head priestess): High level Cleric
Ulath'tallar(arch priestess): NPC Cleric

this topic is odd and Im trying to understand if we are talking about what constitues acheiving ranks in the temple or some rumor about the new ilharess.
can someone clear this up?

The one led to the other. We've been a bit confused on hearing that there was a FS Yath'tallar, when a lot of people rolled clerics for the RP because they were under the impression from those posts that Favored Souls couldn't go past Yathrin.

ahh i see. well if she has usurped her postion then I guess it sticks rp wise, but we will see what becomes of it.

*edited by DM AXE - I will in the future avoid trying to start stuff without fully reading the amendments.*

Amendment-

Yath'abban(temple associates): low level Cleric, low level Favored Soul, low level Eldrich Disciple, any level Female Black Guard or Female Divine Champion
Yathrin (priestess): mid to high ranged Cleric, Favored Soul, Eldrich Disciple
Yath'tallar(head priestess): High level Cleric
Ulath'tallar(arch priestess): NPC Cleric

There is an amendmant which is posted.

DM_AXE wrote:

Amendment-

Yath'abban(temple associates): low level Cleric, low level Favored Soul, low level Eldrich Disciple, any level Female Black Guard or Female Divine Champion
Yathrin (priestess): mid to high ranged Cleric, Favored Soul, Eldrich Disciple
Yath'tallar(head priestess): High level Cleric
Ulath'tallar(arch priestess): NPC Cleric

There is an amendmant which is posted.

Pardon me, I thought you said she was a Yath'Tallar.

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t8320-li-neer-tyrr

Sig at the bottom says Favored Soul, And by your post above you state that only High level Cleric's can be Yath'Tallar, so how did a Favored Soul of Loth become a Yath'Tallar?

Belsarius wrote:

Pardon me, I thought you said she was a Yath'Tallar.

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t8320-li-neer-tyrr

Sig at the bottom says Favored Soul, And by your post above you state that only High level Cleric's can be Yath'Tallar, so how did a Favored Soul of Loth become a Yath'Tallar?

AFAIK she didn't, so far it's an IC assumption by the character, not an official DM'd promotion.

She paraded back in camp claiming she beat Shyntra in duel and that it gave her rank of Yath'tallar, nobody ran their mouths while she was within earshot ('cause y'know, if she *did* beat Shyntra in square duel that could be Bad for Your Health™) but some may have doubts that the Yath will run with it since she's not a priestess but of those divine classes considered "lesser".

I don't always look at player's character sheets. I tend to try and keep mystery for the enjoyment of myself as a player. I don't memorize your classes, stats, skills, or feats either. Unless your pc is doing like 100 dmg per hit or some other red flag on the field, I try and keep a little privacy in a way.

I expect people before they post to one think of possibility and also read the forums. There are rules in place. This continued explosive response from select players needs to end. I think I am very good and fair with giving others the ability to vent their frustrations, but unwarranted dead-wrong statements would irritate you, and they also irritate me.

Belsarius wrote:

DM_AXE wrote:

Amendment-

Yath'abban(temple associates): low level Cleric, low level Favored Soul, low level Eldrich Disciple, any level Female Black Guard or Female Divine Champion
Yathrin (priestess): mid to high ranged Cleric, Favored Soul, Eldrich Disciple
Yath'tallar(head priestess): High level Cleric
Ulath'tallar(arch priestess): NPC Cleric

There is an amendmant which is posted.

Pardon me, I thought you said she was a Yath'Tallar.

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t8320-li-neer-tyrr

Sig at the bottom says Favored Soul, And by your post above you state that only High level Cleric's can be Yath'Tallar, so how did a Favored Soul of Loth become a Yath'Tallar?

I think this has a really good RP ptential! A schism in the Church, having a reformer inside. While the priestess might be shocked by this as this is something against the traditions as they did know (time for counter-reformation? ). Also I think for an outsider of the Yath it is very hard to separate the Divine spellcasters, they would better chance internally. It does not mean one should not have doubts on this for various reason .

Between Kira and DM_AXE, this question has been answered perfectly.
Kira straight from the lore, supported again by the DM statement.

The Church of Llolth in any of the novels is known for following traditions.
It's why you bow, it's why you show respect. Tradition is the basis for their entire culture.
Trying to 'reform' the church of Lolth is a really good way to get killed unless you are -->'really'<-- revered by the other Yath'tallaren. I can't stress the "really" part enough.

LadyWolfenstein makes a very good point. If someone was claiming to be a yath'tallar and the church did not support it. It would not be ignored. It would be answered swiftly and made very clearly to the offender as well as to everyone else. I am actually very interested in the out come here.

LadyWolfenstein wrote:

Between Kira and DM_AXE, this question has been answered perfectly.
Kira straight from the lore, supported again by the DM statement.

The Church of Llolth in any of the novels is known for following traditions.
It's why you bow, it's why you show respect. Tradition is the basis for their entire culture.
Trying to 'reform' the church of Lolth is a really good way to get killed unless you are -->'really'<-- revered by the other Yath'tallaren. I can't stress the "really" part enough.

I absolutely agree on this, however I do feel a space to handle this ICly as the recent events of struggle (Lolth silence, being in a refugee camp) could arise different interpretations and rebellious approaches even inside Lolth's followers.

I suppose so. But if an exception is made in one case then why not in others? That will always be the argument for things like this.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

I suppose so. But if an exception is made in one case then why not in others? That will always be the argument for things like this.

Yeah, now the other servants need to approach this really carefully! Their decision might effect the future. I would love a scene of religious debate! And if you do so, please make screenshots!

I am not an UD player, and really have no sway one way or another in this argument. I am, however, curious about why Favored Souls cant be at the top of the order. Is it to stick to the part of the lore where FS's are usually not in line with a church because of their chaotic nature? Is it to balance out the idea of hundreds of drow FS with their natural Cha bonus?

The Biggest Lebowski wrote:

I am not an UD player, and really have no sway one way or another in this argument. I am, however, curious about why Favored Souls cant be at the top of the order. Is it to stick to the part of the lore where FS's are usually not in line with a church because of their chaotic nature? Is it to balance out the idea of hundreds of drow FS with their natural Cha bonus?

Just to comment on this, 'Chaotic nature' is the one perfectly suited for Lolth, whose main domains include Chaos. Lolthite society is a chaotic society ruled by church and hierarchy.

And another thing; Charisma is actually much less beneficial to FS than it is to a Cleric. FS get no charisma based abilities, and their spell DCs depend on Wisdom. Charisma only affects bonus spells per day... Which makes playing an FS much more restricting than one would think. Also, Lolthite get focus on daggers... Being the worst favored weapon, second only to Mystra & Tymora with Shuriken.

The Forgotten Realms wiki page states Favored Souls ("Invokers") are generally not affiliated directly with the Yath, but doesn't at any point state that it would be an absolute. The relation between Cleric and FS is much like that of Wizard and Sorcerer: Natural casters get the scorn of the bookworms, for various reasons. Favored Souls directly channel the will of their Gods, and ultimately only serve their chosen deity - but unlike clerics, they don't hold every God other than their own somehow false or weak; and rather consider them 'worthy opponents'. This of course varies by just which deity they follow. Lolth isn't quite as open minded with other deities.

Just want to throw something at this -

In War of the Spider Queen's final book, when the Lolth's silence ends and the Yath characters get there spells back, Quenthel (Menzoberanzan's Ulathtallar or head of Arach Tinilith the highest rank a priestess can attain) does not pray for her spells. They simply come to her when Lolth awakens. This to me shows that Quenthel, if we were to make her a PC, would likely be FS. The character who becomes Lolth (forget her name, Danifae I think) is also a Yath and a Bae'queshel, she also shows many hints that they are favored soul and not cleric when she is given that title at the end before she become Lolth.

I know of no place besides these boards and in that wiki where it is stated that FS can not be Yath'tellar and the Wiki from what I understand does not say they can not be just that is uncommon.

Considering that a FS can be Yathrin (per the amendment), why should they not be able to get to the higher rank?(besides this rule)
If a Yathrin successfully defeats a Yath'tellar they should have the title. To say otherwise in a way is to deny a priestess character, who is touched and favored by Lolth, the right to ascend a rank by the traditional means that priestesses gain rank and status in Lolthian Society by defeating a drow of higher status. To not allow it to me does not defend tradition, but instead goes against it by defying the traditional means to ascension, and seems more like following a law than a tradition. I would think telling her favored drow that they can not be a High Priestess even though the rightfully earned it by defeating a high priestess would make Lolth angry and be viewed as a slight.

Imagine. FS Yathrin kills a Yath'tellar. Says I am a Yath'tellar now. The Yath says no, that is against the rules (law) you gain no status.

To me telling a priestess that they can not be a High Priestess even when the defeat another drow with said higher status because tradition says FS can generally not be a Yath'tellar, is defying a stronger and much larger tradition of higher status for those who are strong enough to take it. So it might make the Cleric type priestesses angry IC, I think in the end the FS would be a uncontested as High Priestess, but with a lot more of the Yath gunning for her than normal.

Imagine a Quell'ar killed most of another Quell'ar and the ones who got punished are the one's who won. You can't have it both ways. As Axe has said rules are rules.

Lord Droke wrote:

Just want to throw something at this -

If a Yathrin successfully defeats a Yath'tellar they should have the title. To say otherwise in a way is to deny a priestess character, who is touched and favored by Lolth, the right to ascend a rank by the traditional means that priestesses gain rank and status in Lolthian Society by defeating a drow of higher status. To not allow it to me does not defend tradition, but instead goes against it by defying the traditional means to ascension, and seems more like following a law than a tradition. I would think telling her favored drow that they can not be a High Priestess even though the rightfully earned it by defeating a high priestess would make Lolth angry and be viewed as a slight.

Imagine. FS Yathrin kills a Yath'tellar. Says I am a Yath'tellar now. The Yath says no, that is against the rules (law) you gain no status.

To me telling a priestess that they can not be a High Priestess even when the defeat another drow with said higher status because tradition says FS can generally not be a Yath'tellar, is defying a stronger and much larger tradition of higher status for those who are strong enough to take it. So it might make the Cleric type priestesses angry IC, I think in the end the FS would be a uncontested as High Priestess, but with a lot more of the Yath gunning for her than normal.

Quote :

Imagine a Quell'ar killed most of another Quell'ar and the ones who got punished are the one's who won.

I happens all the time. The word MOST is key. To leave survivors to give accusations means it is not a victory, but a failure.
This statement also seems like a regurgitation of an argument over another issue, that has been, for the most part, resolved in game. I posted my thoughts, and they are just that, my thoughts on the issue

Quote :

Just want to throw something at this

I have no desire to be drawn into an argument. My views and thoughts are just that my views and thoughts. Feel free to disagree with me all you want.

A little bit about this has to do with the balance between FS and Cleric it seems to me.

In real life(bear with me ), even though a FS could in many ways beat down a Cleric, they have less versatility. This would be demonstrated via their ability to select prayers to specifically defeat a FS as opposed to the straight multiple spell access a FS has, but only in a "fair duel" situation. In the real world there is no RP out. So just like I have to base my decisions in the game off of my ability to make decisions in RL, I would make the same choices ingame. I personally would follow a cleric for miles before I'd follow a FS.

Just remember, if you change one of the rules or alter the tradition in one way, it might be a bit silly to expect the other rules and traditions to be completely respected for you.

As long as you act accordingly then lets go to it. But remember you are essentially challenging the ordered hierarchy, and must be prepared for people to react accordingly.

I will say this much on this topic, as it pertains very specifically to Lolthite drow, and their culture.

An FS does NOT have to follow the deity they are blessed by, though their attitude must be a similar one. This would lead to huge issues in the Yath, and ever-present questions about whether or not a certain FS is REALLY a devout Lolthite or a suspect heretic. Unlike a cleric... their spells can't prove otherwise.

So in a Yath-based culture, there actually is a valid reason for keeping favored souls down.

EDIT: As for the IC of it, though, this seemed legit to me, at least as the PC's claim. I'm sure it could be countered later on, but anyone can make a claim such as that, and we should see what comes of it. (I.E. if the Yath IG accept it, so be it, if not, things could get interesting ICly and we should roll with it)

This also raises the question, would a FS actually say they are an FS?