Yathrin? Yath'tallar? How do you become them?

To answer Ginthrae's post, Li has at no point openly said not being a Cleric, or shown anything of the sort. Even when she goes to rest to recover spells, she says she's going to pray.

It is what it is -

When I first started playing D&D. Our house rules were that clerics can cast any spell that they needed when they needed it just by praying. Spontaneous Casting. Again this was some late 1st edition and 2nd edition gaming group. However one of the requirements was that if you were a specialist cleric you would have to use the weapon of your god.

Then they came out with the FS class. Adding some other abilities like elemental resistance(still wondering why?) and based them off of Charisma. So I really never liked them because they were like a mix of a cleric and a paladin bonus. Honestly if it was up to me I would make the FS a PrC. But getting back on topic.

We originally did not want to make being a Favored Soul down in the UD this class that everyone wanted to be because I came from a server that well, let's put it this way, "The whole UD full of Loltholite clerics were Favored Soul / Black Guards" accept for my pc's (Viera & Cazna) and Adventure Class's (Vida). The point is, if everyone is a FS, then everyone is truly equal.

A cleric can't teach a FS how to be a better FS. Nor can a FS teach a cleric on how to turn UD or use the spells from the domain from the God/Godess they worship.

The rules have been posted for a LONG time. Again I believe I have stated, I don't have time to read your full character sheet. In some ways I would feel that would be cheating if I knew all of your abilities, feats, classes, PrC, and items. Next maybe I should write them down. Do you see where this is going? I know why this thread was started. Again, would it have been better to send a PM to staff? I can say probably 100% yes.

Do people error? Yes. Do DMs error? Yes. No one should be blaming NorthernStarshine for anything. There is a saying that I have often held dear to myself and given out to many that will listen, "You can win the battle, but loose the War". I think those that are trying to continue to put negativity in the UD IC/OOC policy really don't understand the end result. I am dealing with the player(s) involved. I want to make sure no one is being called out on the floor of this again.

NorthernStarshine wrote:

To answer Ginthrae's post, Li has at no point openly said not being a Cleric, or shown anything of the sort. Even when she goes to rest to recover spells, she says she's going to pray.

I agree on that. From outside the difference of the Favoured Soul and Cleric is thin, almost none existent. Especially to those (my character) who is not even slightly keen on divine spellcasters.

Quote :

NorthernStarshine wrote:

To answer Ginthrae's post, Li has at no point openly said not being a Cleric, or shown anything of the sort. Even when she goes to rest to recover spells, she says she's going to pray.

I
agree on that. From outside the difference of the Favoured Soul and
Cleric is thin, almost none existent. Especially to those (my character)
who is not even slightly keen on divine spellcasters.

the key question here is would a cleric be able to tell though. I would think they would.

Kira wrote:

Quote :

NorthernStarshine wrote:

To answer Ginthrae's post, Li has at no point openly said not being a Cleric, or shown anything of the sort. Even when she goes to rest to recover spells, she says she's going to pray.

I
agree on that. From outside the difference of the Favoured Soul and
Cleric is thin, almost none existent. Especially to those (my character)
who is not even slightly keen on divine spellcasters.

the key question here is would a cleric be able to tell though. I would think they would.

True. I agree on that. That is why this matter is mostly in the hand of the yath itself (well what is not in the Lolthite Drow society?)

I'm getting the feeling this is based on a mechanical issue. Why exactly are FS considered so 'powerful'? The BG / Paladin mix is agreeable, but really, FS multiclassing for instance, is very restricted. There aren't nearly as many choices for FS to work effectively with as for Cleric.

And on my previous post, being based off of charisma isn't exactly a good thing in this case - as the charisma only affects bonus spells. Instead, if you ever want to use spells that use a DC, you'll require a high wisdom score. I don't think I've ever managed to penetrate the Spell Resistance of another drow on first or even second try. For example, during some OOC testing with Shardaer'rik, we were both level 18. I had to cast Word of Faith four times for it to penetrate. Battletide was resisted everytime. Blade barrier as well.

There seems to be some common misconception that FS are somehow overpowered. Some elemental resistances? Any cleric can have those with a few spells to memorize. FS have to be really picky with what spells to learn, as they only get 5-6 per circle. Overall, they get perhaps 2 spells per day more per circle than clerics do. The only real benefit is not having to memorize, and being more versatile in unexpected situations. Weapon focus: dagger and weapon spec: dagger... Using a longsword without any spec would still be better. Higher saves? I think the issue of high saves is mundane in DB, since everyone seems to have ridiculously high ones.

Well honestly you really only need yoru Charisma. FS can't turn undead but if they could, wow... that would be even more insaine. But they get more spells then clerics, their nuke spells aren't needed due to them being based off of wisdom so instead they utilize them buff spells. They don't need to used feats on metamagic unless they are extend or persist. The ability to spontaneous cast is honestly a huge advantage. Especially for a class that is declared to not even have to WANT to worship a god/goddess per the lore of the class in the book. Any spell you have a constant effect is better than a spell that you have to cast due to one, you can disrupt a caster from casting it due to them failing a concentration check or you using KNOCK DOWN to not only prevent casting but to do physical damage to them.

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Instead, if you ever want to use spells that use a DC, you'll require a high wisdom score. I don't think I've ever managed to penetrate the Spell Resistance of another drow on first or even second try. For example, during some OOC testing with Shardaer'rik, we were both level 18. I had to cast Word of Faith four times for it to penetrate. Battletide was resisted everytime. Blade barrier as well.

That has nothing to do with your spellcasting ability, and everything to do with spell penetration vs. spell resistance.
Spell penetration is entirely different from spell DCs.

DCs are for saving throws and such, not for bypassing SR.
For bypassing SR you need a high caster level, and spell penetration feats, or spells that lower SR (assay resistance, mords).

What makes FS powerful is, clerics/FS don't really NEED high DC spells to be effective: being buff-machines is more than enough. So you can focus str/charisma... blackguard levels for a save boost + turn undead for divine might/shield/etc options.
And, of course, spontaneous cleric spellcasting is insane.


THAT being said...
If no one 'knows' she's a favored soul (and who would if she behaves like a cleric, praying, etc?) then I don't see what the problem is.
But... I'm not big on drow/drow rp, so my opinion means very little I'm sure!

A cleric could simply toss away charisma and become a solo buff-bot as well... Or it could get a decent charisma, a decent wisdom and a decent strength and get divine might / shield and eventually epic divine might / shield and absolutely destroy everything.

Not to mention the amazing epic spells that can totally obliterate. ( Damnation, Vampiric Feast, even Mass Fowl )

Without a high wisdom score, even those become useless for an FS, whereas a cleric has a huge advantage in the epic levels with these instant-kill spells and a very respectable DC.

Add:

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What makes FS powerful is, clerics/FS don't really NEED high DC spells to be effective: being buff-machines is more than enough. So you can focus str/charisma... blackguard levels for a save boost + turn undead for divine might/shield/etc options.
And, of course, spontaneous cleric spellcasting is insane.

And that is why the blackguard combination, etc, are banned. FS by itself, without access to those prestige classes as per server rules, is nothing like the monster you describe it to be. The reason for my win over Shyntra was not the amount of spells I had access to, but the huge amount of consumables I used during the fight. Not sure if Axe noticed, but I used some wands several times, and even some epic quality potions (Shadow Shield, Greater Bull's Strength, Greater Endurance) all which were saved for an epic encounter worthy of them.

FS is the most powerful base class in the game. It gets a lot of goodies like 10/silver/cold iron, which amounts to a virtual 10/- with Stone Body up. And better non-offensive casting than a cleric, which doesn't have good offensive spells to begin with.

So from mechanics/OOC perspective I can at least understand the hate and desire for the class to not be overused.

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From a lore/IC perspective, I see no problem with an FS who prays to their deity becoming a high-ranking member of the clergy. It'll be a little weird if they dumped WIS to 8, but I think we've gotten used to shrugging off that kind of min/maxing that reflects game mechanics rather than what a 'real' character would be like. I mean, we don't have a mechanic to reflect Lolth's favor, which is where a cleric/FS would 'truly' get their power from.

Anyway, mechanic sideshows aside, an FS who's favored enough to kill a high priestess is likely (but not necessarily) favored enough to be capable of passing Lolth's tests and becoming a high priestess herself.

I think it's up to a DM who witnessed their play to make that kind of determination. And if the decision is to be governed by a server rule that has more to do with mechanical shenanigans than what's possible under the lore, that's the staff's choice and we currently have two FS matrons claiming to be yath'tallar who apparently aren't allowed to "really" be yath'tallars. Just don't mistake a server rule for what's actually possible in Faerûn.

Ansient wrote:

FS is the most powerful base class in the game.

In your opinion. And my opinion is Druid. Followed by Bard.

PS. I don't have a single min-maxed stat. My lowest stat is CON, at 8. Which is not min, because the minimum for drow (-2 base CON) is 6.

PPS. Agree with the IC portion though. -.-"

I think those classes who can casts spells spontaneously have a little bit of advantage over the same kind of class having to set up the spells way before. Also they often having more spells per day (and yes, less to select from). It is a huge advantage in a battle what you did not expected before and thus could not prepare with a spellcatser like Wizard or Cleric.

Ironically, I didn't know much of FS mechanics before I made the character. I didn't know they didn't have access to turn undead. I felt a bit bummed, as I was really looking forward to Divine Might / Epic Divine Might.

Not to mention getting past the burden that is daggers...

From a mechanical PoV, these were some irritating things for me, personally. At early points, I was tempted to remake as a Cleric for purely mechanical reasons.

Then I compensated for the self-gimp that is daggers and made them a part of my RP. It gave them some emotional / RP value, and made the mechanical low-ride more bearable.

Even now, despite having weapon focus and specialization, using a rapier or longsword gained from elf proficiency would be mechanically more effective.

At least personally, I never, at any given point in time, considered a pureclassed FS to be stronger than a Cleric. Sure, spontaneous casting, some DR, higher saves, more spells per day...

Well, I'd really just want epic divine might. >_>

Sorry for double post, but here:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Invoker

I think some of the lore subjects regarding FS on DB are from incorrect sources. Don't forget, this is Forgotten Realms - Not any other DnD subgenre.

DM Axe has stated that an FS doesn't even have to follow the deity that grants them power, et cetera - which is an absolutely ridiculous notion (I mean, in general, whoever thought of that must have been smoking something - not aimed at Axe but the source he takes it from)

In Forgotten Realms, as you will see on that page, Favored Souls are even more restricted than Clerics are. They need to serve their deity rigorously and they have to be the exact same alignment as well - something Clerics don't have to, as long as they're within the allowed limitations.

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Then I compensated for the self-gimp that is daggers and made them a part of my RP. It gave them some emotional / RP value, and made the mechanical low-ride more bearable.

Even now, despite having weapon focus and specialization, using a rapier or longsword gained from elf proficiency would be mechanically more effective.

Wait, huh? A longsword is 4.5 average damage vs. a dagger's 2.5. But you have +1 AB and +2 damage with a dagger. So clearly a dagger edges out, unless you're talking disarm or wanting to go 2-handed for strength damage and power attack.

Anyway, if the rule of no-FS-yathtallar is a stickler, it'd be nice if you're offered a rebuild to cleric. Personally I think a Cleric/Child of Night like Shyntra is a lot more "yathrin-y" flavored than the more martial FS class, so I'd totally enjoy the former more if I were playing such a character

NorthernStarshine wrote:

Ironically, I didn't know much of FS mechanics before I made the character. I didn't know they didn't have access to turn undead. I felt a bit bummed, as I was really looking forward to Divine Might / Epic Divine Might.

Not to mention getting past the burden that is daggers...

From a mechanical PoV, these were some irritating things for me, personally. At early points, I was tempted to remake as a Cleric for purely mechanical reasons.

Then I compensated for the self-gimp that is daggers and made them a part of my RP. It gave them some emotional / RP value, and made the mechanical low-ride more bearable.

Even now, despite having weapon focus and specialization, using a rapier or longsword gained from elf proficiency would be mechanically more effective.

At least personally, I never, at any given point in time, considered a pureclassed FS to be stronger than a Cleric. Sure, spontaneous casting, some DR, higher saves, more spells per day...

Well, I'd really just want epic divine might. >_>

I could tell you about choosing ineffective weapons, and not really effective builds as I tend to mess up the mechanism, and I do care little of the power side.

But imagine, you still have the ability to use other weapon, right? You will loose some BAB, that is all. An RP wise Cleric might also use dagger as well, and a less RP wise FS would use some more effective weapon. No?

What makes you strong is the fact you don't have to calculate a good spell selection or general spell set trying to assume what you will encounter.

The wizard/sorcerer is perhaps a bit more balanced with the wizards having extra feats each 5 level. Either their spellcasting will be more effective or they can become good enchanter.

Well... If I were a cleric, and could pick between the bonuses Wizard has vs Sorcerer - meaning, 4 bonus feats by level 20... That's a lot...

Or Divine Might / Divine Shield...

Well...

Admittedly, that's a tough one. But still in complete balance - as Divine Might leads to Epic Divine Might... I'd take that.

In any case, in my opinion, the mechanical issue surrounding FS being 'overpowered' (especially Lolthite FS as this is a matter related only to Lolthites, not any other) is not grave enough to permit such a ban as an absolute - especially since multiclass restrictions are already in place.

I'm gonna go to bed now, so... Last post for tonight. It's 4 AM. Goodnight.

As Axe has previously stated before, we can't game the NPC's the highest level cleric in game is the Camps Ilharess. She should never rule that a FS would be Yath'tallar so for you to state so in camp would be in fact godmodding, IE you are doing something the NPC's would not support. In essential every time you call yourself Yath'Tallar you are breaking the server rules

Nothing says you must have the epic (or divine) might as a cleric in fact. Also it would require a great strength and charisma. It is tempting yes, and there is the possibility, but you don't need to do so.

I think we have gotten off topic here.
There are two other threads
debating the power of FS and FS vs Cleric not more then two weeks ago. I
debated that FS was not too powerful.

The topic here is should a FS be allowed to become a yath'tallar? And what does Lore say about it.

Here is something I found from a previous thread on this topic. Posted by Evil.


This suggests that FS could hold High office it would just be very difficult for them

Is there anything lore based that says FS can't be clerics? I thought there was but i haven't found it.

Ok in regards with FS yes I think they are silly and should at very least be DM restricted both for the reason of they outclass clerics and they're supposed to be rare but thats another point
I'll be honest I do kind of hate obsidean for putting FS into nwn as generally even in DnD it is a bit of a cheese class in my opinion.
Really the class gets so much for free and generally while not as versetile as cleric is still arguably better in terms of well straight off battle if you pick your spells right.
I mean FS get high saves on all saves, free DR, Free Energy resistance, free weapon focus and get more spells than a sorcerer of equivilent level have.
This is really just my reasons for disliking FS, iv been on servers where the class was banned after level 10-12's started soloing areas that had been designed for level 20's
but yeah I think we are gettins somewhat off topic here >.>

Belsarius wrote:

As Axe has previously stated before, we can't game the NPC's the highest level cleric in game is the Camps Ilharess. She should never rule that a FS would be Yath'tallar so for you to state so in camp would be in fact godmodding, IE you are doing something the NPC's would not support. In essential every time you call yourself Yath'Tallar you are breaking the server rules

That's like saying Valim and Dash are breaking server rules by naming themselves king. If the Ilharess wants to take action, I'm sure the DM would have sent her to do so already. I think the issue is whether she can actually become a real Yath'tallar.

In character, however, I could see someone who's completely devoted to Lolth, then beating the Yath'tallar in a duel, would think they have that position.

Well lets see how the DM's rule on this one

Honestly, the way I see it, her claim should be viewed as "illegitimate."

Other Yath should be pretty pissed off IC, really.

Li essentially has thrown down the gauntlet, if I'm not mistaken. "I'm a Yath'tallar now. What's that? Don't like it? Do something about it!" in short.

Those who can get away with it won't recognize her as such. Those who can get away with it will refute it, and probably be involved in some sort of conflict over it. It's drow politics...Take what you can.

While it's tempting to take the "lets just resolve it IC" high road, that's always an option. I'm more interested in what Lolth thinks, and whether religiously speaking Li can fulfill the usual criteria.

The assumption that other Yath should be pissed off seems totally unwarranted to me.

I see pissed off players, who for whatever reason weren't pissed off at the other FS "yath'tallar" (likely just not even aware of it). Who's to say their characters would be aware of it, or aware of Li'Neer?

I don't get all the assumptions being made here. Belarus' statement about the Camp Ilharess's reaction and stating "every time you call yourself Yath'Tallar you are breaking the server rules" was particularly nasty and objectively metagaming.