UD PvP Question

Vilesinger wrote:

We seem to not have hardly any physical arguments..

In my opinion this is not only generally lore-accurate, but in the spirit of more enjoyable gaming, as well. Too much mechanical PvP can limit RP, and alas not everyone is playing a level 30 caster

I do agree that there should be limits on mouthy inferiors, but leaving the resolution of that problem in the hands of outright PvP isn't necessarily the best idea, in my opinion. I think this is the crux of Vilesinger's point; there's no way for the Yath and other high ranks to REALLY enforce their authority other than public beatings and humiliations. Lorewise, I would imagine punishments of transgressions againt rank to be extreme, but rarely resulting in actual death. If some shebali male raised a hand against some noble Yath'tallar, then yeah, he might be killed, but I think in most cases punishments would be more along the line of "forced to endure a severe beating by goblin slaves".

A "repeat offender" against the hierarchy or will of Lolth could be referred to the temple authorities (DM) for further punishment; perhaps consistent disregard for drow social norms could be dealt with through XP penalties or something like that. While drow aren't really into the tattle-tale thing, they would probably think nothing of exploiting a higher power to damage a foe, and the church itself has an interest in maintaining the fear surrounding it's authority.

I remember back before we had jumpy guards mi used to cast inflict upon anyone of lower rank who pissed her off then just leave it at that sometimes.
But yeah really all that can be said of the consequences the yath do everything it can to maintain fear of its yath, if a person starts to attack members of the yath, then the yath will do all it can to reestablish that fear lest others start to get ideas.
Generally it should be a very big decision to attack a yath, usually if you wish revenge against one of them you try to take it to their superior or outmanuver them politically
I have a quote for this somwhere

Jeremor wrote:

If you attack a non-yath drow and fail, it is likely that they will try to kill you back later on. If you try to attack one of the Yath, you are likely to be labeled a heretic if you fail to kill her. Exile seems a likely punishment for attacking a Yath.

Well this is exactly the kind of thing I am curious about. Exile from what? The Camp? The UD? Be KoS to everyone in the UD? Who has the authority to do this exile? We have no single top figurehead...no Ul'Yath'tallar, no Church of Lolth...we have nothing really other than an Ilharess of the camp..who probably would not be concerned with anything outside her camp.

And two que'llars that seem to always be grumpy to each other

No one has authority to exile someone from the entire underdark. Elina has exiled people from camp multiple times in the past, and has declared many others heretics(which essentially means "Kill on Sight"). I suppose you could, conceivably, be exiled from Sschindylryn, but I've never heard of it happening. Hell, Vhaeraunites used to just hang out there openly even though it's a Lolthite drow city. This is no different from anywhere else on the server, like Myth Drannor and Shadowdale... people get banished/outlawed/wanted all the time on the surface, it's all quite simple.

The Camp DOES have a church of Lolth, that is the temple in the center right behind the altar. All Yath, from both Qu'ellar, belong to it... and by lore, they -should- be putting the church before their Qu'ellar in most actions, but that isn't always the way it plays out here. Elina is the de facto head of the church, and by extension the Camp, as I have understood it. She has the authority to do whatever she wants, basically.

I guess if you personally pissed off one of the Qu'ellars in particular, their members would try to kill you, sure. That should really be obvious though.

The labeling of heretic should be for DM's only. Heretics are KOS for Lolith Drow or should be for the most part. I personally think NO player character should have the right to do this. It has caused way to much drama in the past. Or if priest are going to be given this ability then the player should have to be vetted by the DM and be subject to spell failure and all the other things they currently get to forgo. Your goddess sees all! A priestess can NOT fake the funk like other classes can. Lolth will F you up.

I would also say this server is not hardcore. We have moved away from trying to destroy peoples characters in the UD and I Am HAPPY ABOUT THIS!!! I do not miss the bad old days when priestss walked around and activly tried to get any one they did not like declared a heretic for dumb crap. Like asking questions designed to have no right answer. Let's not go back there.

If some one lower ranking is mouthing off send them a tell. Let them know they are consenting to pvp with their RP and they will find it here in a few seconds if they don't hush. Insults are consent to PvP. If you want to RP a mouthy badass then you need to expect to get beat up. ALOT. A new character is unknown. You have few allies, political power, personal power, and support. And your talking smack? Really? Not even being a priestess can make up for these things in Drow society.

If they are higher ranking then suck it up buttercup and hook them up in the tunnels. Personally I think there should be NO RP out for someone that beats your character in camp. You want to do that RP? Cool! Then if you get caught out of camp take like a champ.

Elina is the Ul'Yath'tellar (First High Priestess)(ie A higher rank does not exist and she has no equal in the church) She also is the camp Ilharess.

+ everything J said there

Back in the day the term "heretic" was applied to anyone someone else was trying to kill/dispose of regardless of actual faith. The "reasoning" for it was that anyone who was to strike (or id almost say simply disagree with) A yath was seen as directly opposing lolth.
This was rampant, and for a moment this ridiculously high authority was unrightfully given to bards as well. they claimed this at the time due to their "divine spell casting". this escalated to lead some to speculate that striking a female was punishable by sacrifice. yatta yatta yatta, it was a dark time back then and im glad were moving away from outright ridiculousness.

Attacking a Female member of the church of Lolth in a area where the church of lolth is the ruling power will have some serious repercussions. I believe Old DM_AXE made the argument that the Epic Cleric Ilharess would never stand for that and there would be xp penalties for server negligence.

Let me make a real life example. Two average humans get into a bar fight. compare the seriousness of that event to a civilian of any country attacking a Diplomat, lawmaker or judge of their country.
This would be comparable to to sarglithilins fighting. and the latter a sargllithilin attacking a yathrin.

+ everything F said there

here we go if this helps

More frequently, the individual becomes a bound slave to the house or church....

This right there would make me seriously consider not taking revenge on a particular trio of Dabel'kith Yath...the IC results are ummm bad...

Vilesinger wrote:

More frequently, the individual becomes a bound slave to the house or church....

This right there would make me seriously consider not taking revenge on a particular trio of Dabel'kith Yath...the IC results are ummm bad...

That's implying you're caught in the act, as death warrents, people are supposed to forget the moments before death. You shouldn't fear taking revenge on people just because they will go crying and try to get you enslaved (Something that you can humbly decline.)


It states in the beginning of that post (which is from the Drow Handbook)


"If a lone drow or an institution lacks the capacity to strike back against someone who has wronged her or it, then that individual or institution is clearly not entitled to retribution."


Bluntly Nanga, if you can get your revenge on those 3 by yourself, or through the fundamental workings of allies. You are entitled to any revenge you seek and most likely wouldn't be punished in Drow culture.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

"If a lone drow or an institution lacks the capacity to strike back against someone who has wronged her or it, then that individual or institution is clearly not entitled to retribution."


Bluntly Nanga, if you can get your revenge on those 3 by yourself, or through the fundamental workings of allies. You are entitled to any revenge you seek and most likely wouldn't be punished in Drow culture.

Three Qu'ellaren yath don't exactly "lack the capacity to strike back", especially considering the passage above discusses going to the Church and appealing for help. There's no reason the Church wouldn't help three of their sisters against a powerful foe; remember Yath are priestesess first, Qu'ellar members second.

And if three yath cant defend themselves the church doesnt need them

Quarrel wrote:

And if three yath cant defend themselves the church doesnt need them

Depends on the specifics. What if it was 3 lower level priestesess being attacked by a level 30 arcane caster? Would the temple still expect them to be able to destroy their foe without any aid? It would really depend on the whims of the higher ranking Yath, I think. Case by case basis.

Asking for help makes you weak in Drow culture. This is something we keep downplaying here. ASKING someone to help you punish someone should be a huge deal, as in loss of favor from Lolth deal. The fact that you a priestess of Lolth, a queller master, or even a female on the street had to ask? This is your character stating clearly, to everyone else, that you are a weakling. This should be embarressing and demeaning to any woman in drow socity. Seriously... All the other priestess, queller masters, hell other drow in general should be questioning them and lessers plotting to attack as this implies Lolth no longer favors them.

You do not ask for help lightly. The church ain't BFF's. Sure they will help another priestess keep order but how many times? How often can you beg until you are branded with the stench of disfavor? This should be uppermost in EVERY priests head each time she considers asking the Church for help. This should be something other priestess consider when others ask for help. Lolth never gives favor to those who consistently ask for aid.

A wise priestess cultivates relationships with her underlings, keeps an eye on them, and tries to control the power they hold. When they hold too much power, she acts, and when they hold to little, she acts too. Perhaps when they have too little power, she bolsters them, knowing they represent the institution that provides her with much of her power. Perhaps she destroys them, and starts again with a new crop of acolytes. Such is the chaos of Lolth

However, just because one priestess has been proved unworthy in defeat (and may later be punished or even destroyed for it), it doesn't mean that her attacker is blameless; they still raised a hand against a Yath.

pyro wrote:

Quarrel wrote:

And if three yath cant defend themselves the church doesnt need them

Depends on the specifics. What if it was 3 lower level priestesess being attacked by a level 30 arcane caster? Would the temple still expect them to be able to destroy their foe without any aid? It would really depend on the whims of the higher ranking Yath, I think. Case by case basis.

No, if you can't punish them then you shut your mouth and accept that you are lesser!!! You hate them, plot on them and wait eagerly for the day you destroy them. If the caster is caught openly trying to attack then you win. If not you seeth and wait. Alway trying to discredit them and get others to attack them for you.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

Alway trying to discredit them and get others to attack them for you.

Well, thats exactly what I'm suggesting.

A few newer priestesses get attacked in the tunnels by a clearly more powerful foe (who was NOT another priestess), and manage to survive. They struggle back to the temple, tell their superiors, and try to instigate their attacker's downfall. You can accept you're lesser than someone in terms of raw power, but still use social status and tradition against them, even as a drow. Will you be successful? Who knows... but it certainly seems possible.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

If the caster is caught openly trying to attack then you win.

Of course if it is only a lesser priestess's word againt someone politically important... Being a priestess is not the trump card. It helps alot of course, but it is not the 'I win" button in converstions. We are a Camp not a huge city where the church of Lolth is entrenched and needs no outside support to keep them safe.

For the most part though, an open attack where you allow the priestess to live is going to go badly for you. It is better to not attack if you can not win.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

Of course if it is only a lesser priestess's word againt someone politically important... Being a priestess is not the trump card. It helps alot of course, but it is not the 'I win" button in converstions.

Very true, and obnoxious priestesses can be a problem

I think in this specific case, though, the priestesses in question are also Qu'ellaren (or whatever the adjective for "noble" is).

pyro wrote:

A wise priestess cultivates relationships with her underlings, keeps an eye on them, and tries to control the power they hold. When they hold too much power, she acts, and when they hold to little, she acts too. Perhaps when they have too little power, she bolsters them, knowing they represent the institution that provides her with much of her power. Perhaps she destroys them, and starts again with a new crop of acolytes. Such is the chaos of Lolth

However, just because one priestess has been proved unworthy in defeat (and may later be punished or even destroyed for it), it doesn't mean that her attacker is blameless; they still raised a hand against a Yath.

And there are those here that could be turned to help get your revenge.
Say the new drow males that just entered the camp. On the whole they know very little of whom is whom.
Like my drow being told that (IC mind you) that the houses in the camp where Dabel'Kith & Dargoth!

The drow use cunning, misdirection's and sometimes even out and out lies to those whom are below them to enact revenge.
Just so her hands are not seen with the blood or can be traced back to them. If that happens then you are worried about the ramifications of said act.

pyro wrote:

Quarrel wrote:

And if three yath cant defend themselves the church doesnt need them

Depends on the specifics. What if it was 3 lower level priestesess being attacked by a level 30 arcane caster? Would the temple still expect them to be able to destroy their foe without any aid? It would really depend on the whims of the higher ranking Yath, I think. Case by case basis.

Well this is a gray place I think. There are no levels in character, so you need to think who is more powerful than another. In an OOC way I am trying to not be a bully to other players and their characters. I try to think about the person at the other character. I would rather just take the frustration instead of running around killing everyone who makes Nanga angry. After a time I think this would only make players leave our scarry evil UD

Easier for me to be grumpy then make others angry. I do get frustrated when characters 15-20 levels lower than me beat my character, put needles under her fingernails or tie her up and allow slaves to abuse her. But this is fun Drow RP!

It is more fun to find a non PvP way to get revenge...but options are limited when dealing with Yath!

*stands in the shadows shaking fist with anger*

Yes options are very limited when it comes to dealing with Yath

Generally the main options are to either outmanuver them politically (make them look bad, get them in trouble with their superiors, blackmail them, make them look incompitent infront of their superiors) or to yeah attack them out in the tunnels.
The latter option is as mentioned very risky if the target survives the attempt as the yath will come down hard on any attacking yath members.
This is more out of principle than anything else to stop people thinking they can get away with such much how businesses sue all copyright infingements out of principle or the fact they diddnt can be used against them.
After all if someone starts to think with enough power they can get away with pissing off the yath whats to stop others getting ideas.
Generally attacking a yath or more specifically a yathrin should be a very very big decision to make because of the potential consequences

(not sure wether yathabbans count or not due to well them still being in training as in the books and the like yathabbans spend their entire time while learning to be a yathrin safely inside the Arach Tinilith)

For the case of a yath attacking someone, if your a shebali generally you don't have anyone backing you to take it so kind of cant stop it. If your in a quellar that gives you some amount of protection as if they do something unfair to you, you can report such and get your quellars yathrins or higher if they agree it was unwarranted to go over and beat the yath in question back about it. Its all about the political movements involved, often the messy 'I kill you out in the tunnels' way will come back to haunt you unless careful

I have a quote for this somewhere I will shove up when I can find it again

(had another point but realised i worded it very badly will rewrite it in soon)

gandruff wrote:

Yes i do know we can have a problem with people rolling level 1 clerics just to boss people about.

As far as I'm concerned, Day 4 "Newly Arrived" Yath who have no political backing or friends but feel a need to exert that power they don't have are just asking to get wiped across the floor

I do agree with you there, I know I personally tend to come down upon people essentially taking the piss.

any few day old yathabban found bossing about members of the quellar often get yath attention they really dont want

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

gandruff wrote:

Yes i do know we can have a problem with people rolling level 1 clerics just to boss people about.

As far as I'm concerned, Day 4 "Newly Arrived" Yath who have no political backing or friends but feel a need to exert that power they don't have are just asking to get wiped across the floor

This is legit. In my opinion, Yath types would be an app only character, to insure that they get played well. Not to say anything against any players now; just that it's an extremely challenging role to play at all; let alone play in an essentially cooperative game. Those with experience will probably handle it best.

actually I like the 4 day old yath'abbans. I make an extra effort to bow to them and gently show them that they do not need to be a bully to RP properly.