Name the Ranks of Yath

Yath'abban (Temple Agent)

Yath'abban Requirements: (L1+ Cleric of Lloth)
- Capable of casting divine spells granted by the Spider Queen.
- Must be both female and full blooded drow.
- Possess a basic knowledge of Lloth and Her dogma.
- Pledge their life in service to the temple and the Spider Queen.

Yath'abban Responsibilities:
- Show respect to members of all ranks that are above themselves and refer to their superiors by their title.
- Obey all orders given by higher ranking members of the Yath.
- Participate in regular tours through the city to search for law-breakers, unruly or idle jaluken, and for any signs of heresy.
- Assist Yathrinen with rituals such as sacrifices and familiarize themselves with the tenants of Lolth.
- Monitor the health and activity of the temple and city spiders.
- Pursue knowledge and understanding in the teachings of Lloth by attending regularly held lectures in addition to studying on their own.

Yath'abbanen are drow who have at one point in their development begun to serve the Yath instead of pursuing the more mundane vocations. Temple Agents are sent on low-importance missions for Yathrinen or Yath'tallaren in order to test their skills and devotion to Lloth. Especially talented or devout Yath'abbanen can be chosen by a Yathrin to be a personal assistant. Yath'abbanen can expect to run errands, undertake missions, and sometimes fight for the Yath. They should complete these things with vigor and determination.

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Yathrin (Priestess)

Yathrin Requirements: (L9+ Cleric of Lloth)
- Must be a female drow Yath'abban capable of casting Raise Dead as a spell.
- Assist a Yathrin in one or more sacrifices.
- Successfully complete at least one of the temple's classes or private tutoring sessions.
- Participate in at least one training session in the Melee-Magthere on basic combat and tactics.
- Demonstrate loyalty and respect to superiors in the Yath as well as devotion to Lloth and a fundamental knowledge of Her dogma.
- Pass a Yathrin test, administered by a Yath'tallar or the Ulath'tallar herself.

Yathrin Responsibilities:
- Show respect to members of all ranks that are above themselves and refer to their superiors by their title.
- Obey the orders of the Ulath'tallar and other Yath'tallaren.
- Participate in regular tours through the city to search for law-breakers, unruly or idle jaluken, and for any signs of heresy.
- Serve the Spider Queen first and foremost. Undertakings performed in Her name take precedence over routine orders.
- Participate in educating the lower ranked members of the Yath. Torture, prayer, and worshipping the Spider Queen are all skills that need to be passed on. It is the Yathrin's job to help ensure that all Yath'abbanen learn these basic skills.
- Regularly develop, prepare, and perform ceremonies honouring Lloth. They must ask for blessings, guidance, as well as spread the faith.

A Yathrin is a priestess of Lloth, committed to upholding the tenants of the faith. Priestesses, through their ceremonies and other activities, assist in teaching the newer members the rules and expectations. Yathrinen must constantly seek to interpret the whims of the Spider Queen and act to fulfill those expectations. Yathrinen are also responsible for maintaining order and adherence to the old ways, being constantly alert to the possibility of corruption by heretics, and advancing the will of Lloth. Yathrinen should make efforts to research and document the Way of Lloth and document several rituals for future reference.

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Yath'tallar (High Priestess)

Yath'tallar Requirements: (L17+ Cleric of Lloth)
- Must be a female drow Yathrin capable of casting Implosion as a spell.
- Perform at least three blood sacrifices, one of which must be supervised by the Ulath'tallar.
- Demonstrate an in-depth knowledge of Lloth and Her Will, as well as be able to identify signs of heretic goddesses and gods.
- Continue to demonstrate devotion to the Yath and prove to have received Lloth's favour in some way.
- Show the ability to lead, to find and root out weakness, and to put males in their place.
- Pass an instructional course given by the Ul'ath'tallar or her delegate on proper interrogation techniques.
- Must succeed in the Yath'tallar trials, given by the Ulath'tallar.

Yath'tallar Responsibilities:
- Assist the Ulath'tallar in running the temple.
- Serve the Spider Queen first and foremost and undertakings in her name take precedence over any other matters.
- Keep a close eye on the Yathen and the training of the Yathrinen.
- Regularly develop, prepare, and perform ceremonies dedicated to Lloth.
- Root out weakness and heresy within the city.
- Destroy those who oppose the Spider Queen and ensure that everyone serves Her Will, in one way or another.

Yath'tallaren are very, very powerful drow. The dictates of Lloth are delivered via proxy through the Yath'tallaren, and these dictates should be enforced to the best of their ability. Their main duty besides instructing the Yathrinen is to ensure that the Will of Lloth is properly discerned and maintained.


Those are the requirements I have seen in the past from previous Drow society I have participated in. In regards to the other ranks, here are a few I have seen also.

Kyorl’d’Orbb – Spider Guard

These males are a branch of the Arach-Tinilith (Lolth Temple). They are made up of only the most honored males, those who hold perfect adherence to Lolthite society. They perform as role models for others to follow. They have many duties all of them involving service to the Arach’tinilith and only the priestesses of Lolth. They guard the Temple and most importantly the priestesses.

Under the direction of the priestesses they patrol the streets of the city to insure that the populace is in perfect discipline.

The Arch High Priestess (Ul’ath’tallar) has ultimate authority over the Kyorl’d’Orbb:

1. Must be male
2. Must be a cleric of Selvetarm
3. Must have at least one priestess to vouch for you.
4. Must have fighting prowess and be capable of scouting most of the underdark on your own.
5. Must have a clean history with no ill behavior or crimes.
6. Must pass a test given by the current ranking Olath’sutrinos (Dark Commander)
7. Must pass a test given by the Ul’ath’tallar
8. Black Guards are accepted but only if their powers are from Selvetarm or Lolth.

I have seen alot of posts stating that the temple should decide this or that. Unless I am mistaken, all the temple is for is to train the Yath, act upon Lolth's will regarding the city as a whole. They have no jurisdiction over the houses. The Il'haressen are responisble to each other via the Matron council. Yes, each city is different. If its going to be different then the DM's need to set out the guidelines via IC and OC actions. The temple can take action against its own, the Yath, doing such things as removal of rank. This holds true in the Melee Magarthe and Sorcere. As each decides its own leaders, without House politics involved.

Typically in a drow society like Menzo the heirachy goes like this:

1. Ust'Il'haress (First Matron Mother)
2. Ul'ath'tallar (High Priestess in charge of the temple)
3. Il'haress (Matron Mother)
3. Yath'Tallar (High Priestess)
4. Ul'Faeruk (Archmage)
5. Ul'Saruk (Weapon Master of Melee Magarthe)
6. Yathrin (Priestess)

Not much else matters. In regards to Matron Mothers, the majority them hold the rank of Yath'tallar but there are known exemptions. In really comes down to the ability to lead, and have people follow you. If you can do this, show this to the Council then they must decide by vote if they wish to recognize your house. In the case of the Il'haress, if they are not of the temple they are seen as Honorary Yath'tallar, which commands the respects of their title but not of their training.

Here is the Sorcere and Melee rankings I have seen used also:

The Ranking Structure of the Melee Magthere

The Ul'saruk
The Ul'saruk, or Warlord, is the highest ranking warrior of a Drow city. They are in charge of making decisions concerning raids, the city's defense, and the training of warriors. Often the Ul'saruk is chosen from among the strongest of warriors, but with the responsibility and status that comes with the position, a shrewd mind, proper manners and a charismatic presence are great assets.

Sut'rinos
Sut'rinos means commander. They are the best of the best, the most trusted subordinates of the Ul'saruk. Upon achieving the rank of Sut'rinos, the drow is expected to hold classes, plan and execute raids, and work as the Ul'saruk's eyes and ears. They have the authority to promote Sargtlinen to the rank of Draada, without specifically consulting the Ul'saruk beforehand. They can also recommend possible Sut'rinos candidates to the Ul'saruk.

You can become a Sut'rinos only by the permission of the Ul'saruk. Levels of power do not matter, if he doesn't approve. The general guideline is, that two Sut'rinen per house, at maximum, will be accepted.

Draada'quarthin
The Draadan are the lower officers of the academy. Something equivalent of a lieutenant. Draadan may lead minor raids, take personal apprentices and aid in teaching the Sargtlinen. They answer to the Sut'rinen and the Ul'saruk, and will face the consequences of their failures. They can command Sargtlinen, as long as they're not contradicting orders from higher up. Dradan are often expected to lead patrols into the tunnels around the city.

Ust'Sargtlin
Ust sargtlin are the warriors who have proven themselves worthy of promotion but not ready to be an officer. There duties are to be the eyes and ears to the Draadan to help with training of the new recruits they may lead patrols but not raids. They must continue to train and attend classes and patrol the tunnels around the city.

Sargtlin
Sargtlinen are the lowest of warriors in the academy. They're the ones studying their first years in the academy, the footsoldiers with little value other than their combat-prowess and obedience. Unlike officers, a Sargtlin is just expected to follow orders. If they are told to take part in a plan bound to fail, they do it. The higher-ups, who have planned the operation, will face the consequences. The Sargtlinen are judged by their obedience. Sargtlinen frequently patrol the tunnels around the city, keeping an eye out for possible threats. They attend classes, and train in the use of many basic weapons. Most end up specializing in one, towards the end of their sargtlinhood.

Sorcere

Zhaunin (In Training, lit.)
The Zhaunin is a mage in training, the lowest rank in the Sorcere vocation. Females who show aptitude in magic, are normally recruited into the Yath, so males are mostly mages.
(OOC: A Zhaunin should have at least 1 level of an arcane casting class and be sponsored by a member of the Sorcere of M'elzar rank or greater)

M'elzar (Mage)
M'elzar are Zhaunin which have completed most of their training with their master.
(OOC: A M'elzar should have a sponsor of at least Faern rank and pass a test demonstrating general arcane lore administered by any Faern of E'spdon rank.)

Faern (Wizard)
Faern are mages who have completed their training and mastered the use of arcane magics.
(OOC: A Faern must be capable of casting 9th level spells and be sponsored by a Faern. A testing of advanced arcane knowledge and ability is required and can be administered by any Faern of E'spdon rank. It should include advanced mastery of arcane lore and ability in all schools of magic.)

Faerz'un'arr (Seeress)
Faerz'un'arr are sorceresses whom serve the Arach-Tinilith.
(OOC: A Faerz'un'arr must be female and should have at least one level of Sorcerer and is appointed at the discretion of the Ulath'tallar.)

L'E'spdon d'city name (Archmage of City Name - Ul'Faeruk)
L'E'spdon d'Edonil is the highest rank within the Sorcere.
(OOC: The L'E'spdon city name or Ul'faeruk is appointed at the discretion of the Ulath'tallar and should already be a Faern.)

E'spdon (Archmage)
(OOC: These additional ranks of school archmage's are to recognize Faern who have special or advanced knowledge in a particular school of arcane wizardry. They are appointed by the E'spdon d'city name. Generally only one Archmage is appointed for each school at any given time.)

The eight archmage titles are: E'spdon d'Dispurmet (Archmage of Abjuration), E'spdon d'Leyaar (Archmage of Conjuration), E'spdon d'Trelaomet (Archmage of Divination), E'spdon d'Bekseshar (Archmage of Enchantment), E'spdon d'Doeblarir (Archmage of Evocation), E'spdon d'Zigheninkyorl (Archmage of Illusion), E'spdon d'Elghinnfaer (Archmage of Necromancy), E'spdon d'Thir'kumeunar (Archmage of Transmutation)

You know another way to do it that in my eyes would be much simpler is to make a Yath'tallar, a prestige class with the requirements you see fit. It did not hit me until I found this....


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That pretty much spells it out, although the requirements are to low in my eyes.

@Fuligar

Yes this is the basic structure of menzo, and what has been used in other areas including the city that I played the Ul'ath'tellar in in another server.
There are various problems when using this precise system in a persistent world environment.
1. Menzoberanzan is a VERY large city, even by drow city standards. There are I believe 42 houses in Menzoberanzan. (I’de have to check to be sure, but I’m pretty sure it’s in the 40’s).
2. Menzoberanzan has many other unique features that set it apart. Baenre is a glaring example. The first house is huge, and has incredible power. You stated else where it has two of the schools under it’s control, it actually has all three. Baenre’s power and influence upon the counsel, is uncharacteristic of typical cities. The War of the Spider Queen novels paints a much different city when with Ched Nesad for example. In this city no house has anywhere near Baenre’s power.

As I have stated in Previous areas of these threads, Menzo is a good example of why the houses and the church are not separate things. That and some other elements in the basic Menzo we should definitely use, but for our purposes, the D&D source material on F.R. Drow is much more suitable.

The only way the Menzo system will truly work on a persistent world is if there is no player-run houses and all PCs were in the first house, run by an NPC matron. This would be the only way the Menzo system will work.

You see, in Menzo changes in ranking to the top ranked houses that make up the the il’haress counsel are very rare. In a persistent setting with multiple player run houses what happens when you have a system like this is you end up getting heavy player OOC disgruntlement in the lower ranked houses. I want everyone to take a good look at the bolded text and think on it, because it is a warning to players and staff. In the server I played on before, this occurred before I took the Ulath’tellar rank with my PC. The second house grew larger membership wise than the first, the second house complained so much that the DMs stepped in a tried to change ranking. The first house players got mad, because they had done nothing wrong, a huge fall out occurred and almost all of the first house’s players left and many of the second’s. While I agree we should look at the Menzo modell, I strongly urge everyone here not voice building to much of it into our community, it could very well lead to much worse issue than we have now.

Further more all of the requirements you have offered contradict way to much with our world and it’s players. To implement them we would need to turn the whole underdark upside down and basically start over, and ultimately none of the problems we now are looking for solutions to will go away. They will get worse. Here are some examples:

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Yath'abban Requirements: (L1+ Cleric of Lloth)

If you have been reading these threads you should know all the reasons why this will be, and actually is a problem.

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Yath'abban Responsibilities:
- Show respect to members of all ranks that are above themselves and refer to their superiors by their title.
- Participate in regular tours through the city to search for law-breakers, unruly or idle jaluken, and for any signs of heresy.

These conflict directly with the eachother. Also, there are no law breakers in a city with no laws.

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Yathrin Requirements: (L9+ Cleric of Lloth)

Requiring Yath be cleric instantly makes many of our current Yathrinen obsolete (including my own). If we are crafting a rule set we can not make exceptions and we can not demote people or otherwise destroy current players fun.

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- Must be a female drow Yath'abban capable of casting Raise Dead as a spell.

This works much better for a requirement.

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You know another way to do it that in my eyes would be much simpler is to make a Yath'tallar, a prestige class with the requirements you see fit. It did not hit me until I found this....

This isn’t a horrible idea, but it gets way more technical than things we have discussed here, and does not cover the RP aspect requirements. It also IMO will likely still set the bar for Yath’tellar way to low, allowing anyone eligible to take a feat be one of the most powerful chars in the UD. So I am against this.

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Yath'tallar Requirements: (L17+ Cleric of Lloth)

Cleric of Lolth is fine here because of the level of devotion involved, but lvl 17 is very low. I still think an epic cleric spell is a better bar. Example: If you can’t summon a greater demon, you are not dedicated enough buildwise to play a Yath’tellar. Of course that particular Epic spell is a little more challenging to get than others………

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I have seen alot of posts stating that the temple should decide this or that. Unless I am mistaken, all the temple is for is to train the Yath, act upon Lolth's will regarding the city as a whole. They have no jurisdiction over the houses. The Il'haressen are responisble to each other via the Matron council. Yes, each city is different. If its going to be different then the DM's need to set out the guidelines via IC and OC actions.

Um, it’s going to be different. The entire purpose of these discussion is so the DM can construct those very guidelines out of our input. You are also basing the bulk of your analysis off of Menzoberanzan to which I say see my above comments.

I too have seen Fuligar's system on another server I used to play on: Arelith from NWN1. The system worked pretty well there, but the initial starting point for drow on that server was an actual city, not a refugee camp. We don't have academies with their own buildings like they did. As much as I really liked that system, the refugee camp may be too chaotic to implement it. It works better in an established city (perhaps once we've re-taken Maermydra). It'd be worth a try, though.

The qualification for Yath'tallar on Arelith was the ability to summon a true demon, which of course would mean a pure level 17 cleric or 18 favoured soul would be enough to qualify. Some might see this as too low, but let me point out one thing: On Dalelands you absolutely must have minimum 3 levels in all your chosen classes by level 20. This means if you want to, like I did with Talasprina, dabble in other classes like war-priest or fighter or assassin or whatnot, your becoming yath'tallar will likely be later than 17th. Only someone who is pure-classed could get that title so low.

I rather liked Arelith's qualification for Yath'rin: Mistress of Life and Death. That is to say that with a single spell the yath could slay or restore life (Slay Living and Raise Dead). The amount of yath'rinnen was limited to about a dozen, and the amount of yath'tallarren was limited to merely four. That meant that if the four Yath'tallar candles were lit and you had a priestess who rose enough in power to meet the qualification, you still had to somehow arrange for the "removal" of one of the existing ones. Drow do love to assasinate and replace, heh, it's their nature.

My opinion is that a slightly modified version of Fuligar's system could be implemented and work fairly well. This would require some adjustments to peoples' rp though: Yath'abbans won't go around mouthing off to House Masters even if they're male. The male in this case outranks the yath'abban and is perfectly within his rights to demand that the yath'abban be punished by her superiors.

My last point is regarding the Ulath'tallar position. While I agree that having a PC control her would probably be a mistake, the DMs can't be on all the time to take control of her, and they might not be privy to all the information required to do so because some other DM made some desicions while controlling her before. Thusly I say that we need a council of yath'tallarren to rule Arach-Tinilith and make desicions about major church affairs. The Ulath'tallar with her god-like powers intervenes only rarely, allowing the council to see to the church's day-to-day running. The Yath'tallar council meets once every X cycles to discuss church business.

Anyways, that's my two cents

Werebeagle

@lord droke

-level 1 is suggested since in the system I proposed the Yath'Abban are nobody's

-there are no law breakers because you push all other UD races away. Instead of allowing them within your encampment, controlling them and making your life easier. I have played a few UD races, every time I quit cause I could get nothing accomplished since every Yath'Abban would stop or try to control me. You need other races as a drow to further your camp and ultimate choice of city. There are laws, they just arent spelled out in writing like most cities...such as no open fighting in the streets.

-The DM asked for ideas, I put one up and because it negates your build its wrong? Think about what your saying. Should a cleric not put Lolth first and foremost, and if wishing to advance those levels should be of cleric, if they wish to be a PRIESTESS or higher.

-Yes, I base alot of what I say on Menzo as that is a primary source of all knowledge regarding Drow Society. I have almost every other source regarding drow, and playing them a long time in PnP and online. Its up to the staff to decide what system makes it easiest on them, I would rather have a system that requires US to do the majority of the work leaving the DM's open to run events and do the special stuff we like. Right now, the way things are being voted the DM is going to be so bogged down with politics, city interaction and such I can not see them having time for much else.

-The PrC idea is nice, and I did say the requirements were to low.

-Level 17 is level 9 casting, meaning they are more then capable of doing whats needed as a High Priestess. If the Yath'tallar has no designs on being the Ul'ath'tallar, that leaves them whatever amount of levels left to do another PrC etc.

I firmly believe that a yath'tallar needs to be an epic. This means at least 21. Anyone and I mean anyone, can grind up to 20. It takes rp and dedication to pass that level. Your character has the power to destory other characters, what is so wrong with setting the bar high?

If you want to have the responsiblity and power IC and OOC wise, then you should be dedicated and put in the time. The best gage for ALL to see is making epic levels. This position is not just about you and your rp. It effects the entire UD. You can make things rotten for everyone. It assues other players that someone who is comitted to doing it right is in charge. It also means you can't get punked so often in the tunnels... Setting the bar at level 24 means that while your High Priest may get beaten at times.... It will be alot less likely.

Drow do not like weakness... It is going to be difficult for the yath'tallar that gets her butt kicked in epic events and or, by rival factions. There are only so many times the yath'tallar is going to get her butt kicked before the other drow losse all respect for her. This is just how drow work.

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the ability to summon a true demon, which of course would mean a pure level 17 cleric or 18 favoured soul would be enough to qualify.

Question…thought 9th level gate spell summons a horned devil? I never pick it for this specific purpose.

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-there are no law breakers because you push all other UD races away. Instead of allowing them within your encampment, controlling them and making your life easier. I have played a few UD races, every time I quit cause I could get nothing accomplished since every Yath'Abban would stop or try to control me. You need other races as a drow to further your camp and ultimate choice of city. There are laws, they just arent spelled out in writing like most cities...such as no open fighting in the streets.

This is entirely in accurate. There are no laws because drow society is lawless. There is no fighting in the streets because the nobles view it as uncouth and uncivilized to be battling in the streets. This also really only applies to house vs. house. A pair of jaluks are welcome to duel wherever they like so long as it does not annoy higher ranked drow. Assassinations happen in broad daylight. In war of the spider queen the wizard character is chased all over the city by his priestess sister who is trying to kill him. So to say no fighting in the streets is not accurate either. There is no established or common law what so ever. There is only tradition and that the strongest with the most status rule.

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The DM asked for ideas, I put one up and because it negates your build its wrong? Think about what your saying.

LOL, not just me, many others. Do you not care at all about the efforts and RP of other UD players? Think about what YOU are saying, these are your friends and game buddies that you play your drow with in the Underdark. You are in favor of them all scrapping their characters, which would likely destroy the houses or severely cheese any ongoing RP by making them Matronless or Yathless or otherwise causing harm to the current player base a whole.

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Should a cleric not put Lolth first and foremost, and if wishing to advance those levels should be of cleric, if they wish to be a PRIESTESS or higher.

Of course that is why I have suggested Spell lvl limits as well. I actually agree that cleric should be a requirement for Yath’tellar. Not just an 18th lvl cleric either, a cleric with an epic spell, preferably epic gate. If she can summon a balor and turn undead, she meets the spell requirements. That shows plenty of dedication to the class. More so than your own suggestion in fact.

We disagree when it comes to the Yathrinen. Not every priestess becomes a High Priestess, and I have provided evidence that multi class Yathrin do exist. I would pull more up, but it would be pointless, my point is proven.

I see no point then to all these threads asking for this information. It is basically coming down to whoever has been here the longest, has their toon set in stone in their positions that will decide what is done. As each and every suggestion given outside of those people are shot down and ridiculed.

Do us all a favor, post what its going to be so we can get moving forward please....as it stands I seriously doubt we will ever see our own city because everyones ego's keep getting upset and people run off quitting when someone pisses in their cheerios.

The funniest part is the fact in one thread I get told we dont use books as lore, stop relying on menzo so much..then in this thread thats all your doing for your sources.

No I remember why I stopped playing here.

Fuligar wrote:

I see no point then to all these threads asking for this information. It is basically coming down to whoever has been here the longest, has their toon set in stone in their positions that will decide what is done. As each and every suggestion given outside of those people are shot down and ridiculed.

Do us all a favor, post what its going to be so we can get moving forward please....as it stands I seriously doubt we will ever see our own city because everyones ego's keep getting upset and people run off quitting when someone pisses in their cheerios.

The funniest part is the fact in one thread I get told we dont use books as lore, stop relying on menzo so much..then in this thread thats all your doing for your sources.


No I remember why I stopped playing here.

This whole comment is a full blown assumption and a shot from the hip response to a progressive and thorough discussion involving making the Underdark better. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yet yours is the only one that has used profanity up to this point. This is a warning. If it was so easy to forget why you stopped playing here then it must not have been that big of a deal.

What are you talking about? My main is bard, I can't even be a yath'abban so I am not sure what your talking about. I do have a level 4 priest alt.... I will never be important persay. So I am kind of lost. I am only asking to keep it simple. Your ideas are complex and a very big change. Let's just fix the base issues before we work on the everything else.

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

Fuligar wrote:

I see no point then to all these threads asking for this information. It is basically coming down to whoever has been here the longest, has their toon set in stone in their positions that will decide what is done. As each and every suggestion given outside of those people are shot down and ridiculed.

Do us all a favor, post what its going to be so we can get moving forward please....as it stands I seriously doubt we will ever see our own city because everyones ego's keep getting upset and people run off quitting when someone pisses in their cheerios.

The funniest part is the fact in one thread I get told we dont use books as lore, stop relying on menzo so much..then in this thread thats all your doing for your sources.


No I remember why I stopped playing here.

This whole comment is a full blown assumption and a shot from the hip response to a progressive and thorough discussion involving making the Underdark better. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yet yours is the only one that has used profanity up to this point. This is a warning. If it was so easy to forget why you stopped playing here then it must not have been that big of a deal.

Umm, I just reread my post 4 times. I do not see where I used profanity in my post. If you are referring to "pisses" I apologize as I do not see that as a profanity. However, I am sure we all come from different parts of the world and you may see it as such.

I know there has been thorough discussion, I have read it all. However, there is also a lot of contradictions between posters that it comes down to whos in charge. Asking opinions is nice and all but really, make a decision and move forward not everyone is going to be happy.

The only reason people do not want change is cause it will effect them, and we all know that can not happen. I just want consistancy on what is or is not a source, as I have seen so many different posts on what is or isnt.

This used to be a fun world to play on, but as was posted ego's have gotten in the way..the same way I see it happening now regarding these changes.

Every drow city is different, every persistant world is different, so your lore and sources are just a "GUIDE" by which rules and such should be made. There are drow societies with laws, there are cities who consist of Yath'Tallar as temple rankings. This world needs BASIC structure by which we build upon, if that means some feelings get hurt in the process so bet it.

When I feel like everyone's had a chance to voice their opinion then I will make a decision.
I did not consult anyone regarding the Surfacing and Descent policy, so don't mistake indecision for lack of follow through. This is a portion of the setting that needs to be touched upon by all players, and I'm giving you as much opportunity for input as possible before moving forward. Any decision made in the end will only please about 80% of the people it affects (if it is sound in logic). Again, I know how to do my job. Where you see Ego's I see people who have been around the block a time or two and have devoted many many hours of their time into developing their characters, that's called Pride. To ignore the hard work and effort they have put into this setting would only diminish the quality of our evolving Underdark and insult those who have given life to our setting.

Now to redirect this, back on topic. If you have something constructive to say please continue.

Mmmm I would personally say, dont actually have a set spell for the person too cast, let them icly pick a spell that best sumsup their characters personally and stuff, the main thing I guess is that they can recive/cast 9th level spells.

Just as a thought.

Yath’arcane rank – feel free to skip reading this part, as I feel it is slightly off topic other than covering why there are lore issues with the yath’qu’eshal rank along with any no-standard yath-title/ranks since it effects the community as a whole, instead of just one specific group. Though I do feel this topic needs to be addressed, perhaps it is best handled in PM’s between DM Mindflayer, DM Mustang and the drow guild leaders.

Spoiler:

Back to the discussion of yath ranks – which imho need to be one single system for all houses in order for the COMMUNITY to work as a whole.

Yath’abban

One of the issues I have with brand new clerics rolling into the UD and claiming yath’abban status without bothering to learn the local political and lore situations is that is usually creates a good deal of unneeded and unwanted drama.

I strongly support setting a required minimum divine spell level access IN ADDITION TO roleplay support of present yathrin in order for a character to be granted the rank of yath’abban.

What I’m trying to say here, that since yath’abban effectively hold the power of a surface city guard (ability to command others to a lesser degree) that such a player should only receive the rank with the approval of a higher ranking yath (in this case a full yathrin) through in game role-play. Please, no more of this level 1 female drow cleric “I rule the world because I’m a female cleric and have been on the server for 10 minutes” sort of stuff LOL

Yath’abban minimum divine spell ability: Personally, with consideration of how quickly a cleric class character can advance on this server, I favor a system that requires at least access to third level spells (5th pure cleric, 6th favored soul) in addition to the above role-play requirement to be given the rank of yath’bban.

Side note, any yath’abban who is stupid enough to get in the face of, or be offensive to a housemaster, regardless of gender, deserves to be killed. That is, killed in private without witnesses. You asked for it. Furthermore, any house master who is stupid enough to get in the face of, be offensive or deliberately publicly humiliate a yath’abban should expect to be killed by their own house in order for the house to save face in the eyes of Lloth (let alone expect a few kill’ns by that PC later on in her life, ‘cause frankly you asked for it). Should a yath’abban be disrespectful or attempt to publicly humiliate a yath above her in rank, she too deserves to be killed.

Yathrin

Again, I strongly believe that one should only become yathrin through role-played events on the server, not just a level achievement or divine spell access. That being said, I feel that a yathrin should be able to raise the dead as well as rebuke the dead though her own spell casting ability (access to 5th level clerical spells and turn undead). I also tend to believe that it may be possible for there to be a houseless yathrin, but in such case that would be extremely rare, maybe DM controlled NPC only.

Yath’taller

This is the high priest of a specific house. There are no houseless yath’tallers running about. If we follow the lore, there is only ONE yath’taller per house. Of course this title would need to be gained through role-play, and support of all the other yathrin regardless of their house. The Yath’taller of a house is the single most likely person to force an Ilharess to do what the temple wants her to do when it conflicts with her own personal desires and the will of Lloth (as defined by the DM staff). I agree with the requirement of being able to cast 9th level clerical spells.

Ul’ath’taller

Forgive me, but just going to be blunt here – DM NPC ONLY – having a PC Ul’ath’taller will lead to the implosion of the drow community. I have seen this happen, Lord Droke has seen this happen, lets not repeat the mistake here on this server. The position, just like Valsharess, has the social power to end player characters or their guilds, and the eyes of other players who may or may not be ‘close’ with the player who is performing that role will always suspect favoritism. Leave this role in the hands of the DM staff, as they are held to a much higher standard on this server than I have seen on several others.

Quote :

I actually agree that cleric should be a requirement for Yath’tellar. Not just an 18th lvl cleric either, a cleric with an epic spell, preferably epic gate. If she can summon a balor and turn undead, she meets the spell requirements.

I don't see any reason a favoured soul should be denied a yath'tallar position if she's able to cast 9th level spells and an epic spell. If a favoured soul IS denied, then Talasprina will never be able to become a yath'tallar.

Lolth is a diety of chaos, not order, and as such her priesthood is very variable. Priestesses will use any sort of method to give themselves an edge, meaning that multiclass priestesses not only exist, but in fact Lolth would encourage them.

My feeling on this is... a FS does not have to pray for her spells nor does she really have to like her Goddess to be granted those spells.. so if you fall from grace.. how will Lolth block your spells?

On a seperate note if you have to train the younger Yath and again do not have to pray or do rituals to gain said spells how will you train the next generation of Yath.

As well... FS have a limited spell count ... they can not cast all Divine blessings or spells... so again a limite in the Divine.

I still feel Cleric is the way for Yath'tallar... no one is saying no Multi class but there are restrictions to the amount of Divine Standing you should have with in the Yath.

Just my opinion.

Shadow

The problem is if favored souls are allowed yathtallar then there starts to become very little reason to ever play a cleric over them. There's been an entire debate about favored souls in the past as well favored souls don't actually need to follow their patrons dogma as its literally lolth giving power to someone she likes the look of for the lols not for their prayers.

I agree, a cleric of Lolth is Not going to be down with FS as high priest. Clerics are the bulk of the priests. A favored soul is very rare generally. I can not see clerics of Lolth ever allowing FS that much political power. They would not trust them and I think they would move in mass to prevent a FS higher power out of spite and envy.

if the ruling becomes that a favoured soul is not able to ever become yath'tallar, then I must request a complete re-build of Talasprina

The ruling is already there and has been for a while hece why there was a big upcry the last time someone hit yathtallar as a FS that DM Drow sorted out. its just I kind of don't want for that ruling to change as well I think the main points have already been stated

Actually I wouldn't mind having that anyways to correct a few build mistakes I made.

To be honest, I never saw favoured souls as being much different from regular clerics. They're just another variety. But anyone who knows Talasprina knows she prays as much, and is just as devout as any cleric, doing all the rituals and other stuff as much as any member of the clergy, and fearing loss of powers as much too, should she ever become disloyal. To be quite honest it's only the pre-preparing spells system I never liked of wizards and clerics.

The problem isnt with Tala but with the class as Favored Souls don't need to pray and really unless they are planning to be a blaster have no reason for the wisdom score so as such you get people who optimize their FS build and are running around with 8 wis, and having low wisdom kind of not helping when your expected to teach.
Again this is not aimed at tala as I have fun rp'ing with her and till now I honestly diddnt realise she was a favored soul its just aimed in general as it kind of devalues those that took cleric slightly as if you compare FS and Cleric, FS is just better.

I dont think someone could roll a druid, worship Lolth and get yath ranks. That would be seriously broken. Definitely cant roll a paladin of Lolth. There are rules here, just because a class has divine casting dosen't mean it can proceed with the temple. It is for this reason, with this conclusion basing, I formulate my strange pension for vanilla cleric yath.
Maybe my opinions are just old school. Maybe part of me is lazy and didnt want to mulitclass for sake of confusion. Maybe I dont trust other classes to strengthen the character.
If at any point my cleric was to mulit class she would have serious reservations and have to rethink her whole path in life. Diverting time from here clerical studies and meditations to somthing else would be a serious blow to her commitment to lolth. Like being a Doctor but moonlighting as a sax player. You spent all that time going to doctor school and its obvious there are other things in your life.
I dont know of any other divine caster base class that would be applicable to the temple, and i dont wan all yathrin to be the same, of course. This is why i am at odds with myself with this discussion.

Well lolth doesnt allow druids, rangers or spirit shamans at the moment so no chance in that happening.
Generally Cleric is usually strongest pure its like druid in that respect, as i've said before Mi can't match up with a cleric of equal level. But because of her 'moonlighting' if we take drokes example of yathtallar requirements of requiring 9th circle spells and an epic cleric spell. Pure clerics can achieve this on level 21, Mi on the other hand got 9th circle level 24 and her first epic spell level 25 so yes her 'moonlighting' has created a penalty for her as she got the requirements 4 levels after what pure clerics would get.

The Favored Soul Ruling will stand as is. I have gone over the threads concerning this and at first I was like "Why not? They are Favored!"



But after much deliberation and objective reasoning I find that the Cleric will be tossed out and disregarded if this were to happen.

I'm really close on constructing the guide to Yathism and rankings, which should be out by the end of the week.

All of the input the Ud community has been just staggering. I appreciate all of you and your willingness to make our Underdark a better place to play in.