[OOC Question] Formalities and Conduct

I'm unsure if this is the right section for this post, but I believe it's the best section as the question is directly for UD players.

Me and a few friends had the idea to roll drow toons. (Only one of them actually having drow/underdark experience). Because of finals and a few other circumstances only one of them have actually made their drow with me so far, and both of us are new to drow completely. After a rather embarrassing mistake in the first 5 minutes of playing, I thought I would come here and ask about important Formalities and Conduct that need to be followed by drow. My question is aimed more so towards male drow as it seems females (especially clerics) seem to be free to do as they seem fit (and the fact i'm playing a male drow).

So far I learned that a male drow should always refer to a female as Jabbress, as much as possible.

I thank you all ahead of time for responses. So far the UD players have been extremely nice and helpful. I cannot wait to get into drow rp, it seems alot more fun then surface rp. Lolth tlu malla

Hello   

Was there a question in particular that you had?

In generel the UD-socialcode is a chaotic one but it does hold a deeper form of overall structure to it.

If you are a male you're at the bottom of the foodchain - often only one step above slaves - bow to everyone or risk being punished.

There is an overall hierachial order - even among males - however through RP you may be able to ascend through the ranks and deviate from that order.

If we are to list then in hierachial order from the top down AFAIK:

Ulathtallar (High priestess, Non-drow house priestess who serves Lolth above all else, woman.)
Yathrin (Priestess, women)
Illharess (House matrons)
Yath'abban (Those training to become priestesses, women)
Faern ( Men & women)
Faern apprentice (Men & women)
Warlocks (Men & women)
Bards (Men & women)
Arch Assassin (Man or woman)
Assassins (Men & women)
Sargtlin (Footsoldiers/Grunts, men & women)
Tradesmen (Men & women)
Slaves who are drow
Slaves of other races

Aside from these there is the whole noble vs non-noble (Shebali) rankings, as a rule of thumb then if as a houseless drow (non-noble) you see someone wearing the brooch of a noble house you bow no matter their station as it's best not to offend anyone if you wish to survive.

If you join the ranks of the nobles - only done through RP or application - there is a whole new hierachial order to learn aside from the one above.

I started out in the UD 6 months ago with little knowledge of how things were done there and I am still learning. The only way to really learn how things work down there is to roll up a drow or duergar and dive in to find out for yourself, if you make it a drow a Lolthite drow is recommended.

DM FOE wrote:

Hello   

Was there a question in particular that you had?

Basically just how a male should act, things they should do, what to call people. Essentially, how not to get tortured and killed while trying to learn the ropes of playing a drow.

Hygge wrote:

In generel the UD-socialcode is a chaotic one but it does hold a deeper form of overall structure to it.

If you are a male you're at the bottom of the foodchain - often only one step above slaves - bow to everyone or risk being punished.

There is an overall hierachial order - even among males - however through RP you may be able to ascend through the ranks and deviate from that order.

If we are to list then in hierachial order from the top down AFAIK:

Ulathtallar (High priestess, Non-drow house priestess who serves Lolth above all else, woman.)
Yathrin (Priestess, women)
Illharess (House matrons)
Yath'abban (Those training to become priestesses, women)
Faern ( Men & women)
Faern apprentice (Men & women)
Warlocks (Men & women)
Bards (Men & women)
Arch Assassin (Man or woman)
Assassins (Men & women)
Sargtlin (Footsoldiers/Grunts, men & women)
Tradesmen (Men & women)
Slaves who are drow
Slaves of other races

Aside from these there is the whole noble vs non-noble (Shebali) rankings, as a rule of thumb then if as a houseless drow (non-noble) you see someone wearing the brooch of a noble house you bow no matter their station as it's best not to offend anyone if you wish to survive.

If you join the ranks of the nobles - only done through RP or application - there is a whole new hierachial order to learn aside from the one above.

I started out in the UD 6 months ago with little knowledge of how things were done there and I am still learning. The only way to really learn how things work down there is to roll up a drow or duergar and dive in to find out for yourself, if you make it a drow a Lolthite drow is recommended.

I am most definitely a Lolthite drow. Thought it would be the safest route to take starting out. (And i've always wanted to follow the spider queen). Your reply helps alot, I thank you for it greatly.


If anyone else has anything to contribute I would be thankful. Can never have enough information about such a complex structure.

That list is generally correct although there are loads of exceptions based on intricacies. For instance it is typically taught that an Ilharess is ranked above a Yathrin because most Ilharessen are Yathrin in addition to the power and honor that comes with being the head of a Qu'ellar.

Drow > Other races
Priestess > Everyone
Females > Males
Noble > Shebali
Wizards > Other magic users
Magic Users > Non magic users
Non slave races > slave races
Strong > Weak

And all these combine in different ways to elevate themselves. A Noble Male doesn't really have anything to fear from a shebali (houseless) female, mostly because he has allies including Noble Females of his own house and likely Yath on his side. A fighter who is sponsored by Yathrin or a guardian of the Yath has an edge over one who is not. And now for those Drow who do not wish to join a house or cannot for whatever reason there is the Academy in which Drow can gain rank and status.

Most of the oppression is going to be coming from the Priestesses. So while it is wise to not offend strange females- the real danger is offending a Yathrin who is not likely to be punished for attacking you while attacking her will likely get you Drider'd.


Remember that the UD players here are very nice OOC to feel free to send them a tell or ask them how something works if you are confused.

DM FOE wrote:

Remember that the UD players here are very nice OOC to feel free to send them a tell or ask them how something works if you are confused.

That they are. I've gotten help from a few already in-game, which i'm very thankful for. I'll be making a post in the props thread once i'm in-game again to grab the names of the characters.

Also thank you for your post, again, everything helps. I want to do my best as a new character to not be to out of place, and to make as little mistakes as possible to keep things going smoothly and the immersion 100%

On a more fundemental note, Lloth herself is a Chaotic Evil deity. She is prone to her own fits of anger and desire as a demonic lord(ess) she used to be prior to her acsension to godhood.

Now, eventhough Lloth is CE, it's generally agreed by everyone involved that the general populance of drow tends to incline towards Neutral Evil. Chaotic Evil societies would not work, it would fall apart in an eye-blink. The drow go by the rules when it's seen favorable for themselfs or when someone very overpowering upholds these tenets. Rules, laws or regulations are not upheld because for the sake of order or stability, but because most drow submit to a more powerful drow, and the chain of power climbs up and up where the higher always decides what value anyone weaker has. OFTEN the drow scheme by themselfs on how to step up on this seemingly endless staircase of status, taking advantage of their "allies", information or whatever you can think of abusing. It's Lloth, their CE queen who giggles and cackles in her domain while throwing general disarray amongst the drow, this way of life is normal. Anything can happen, a priestess might gain sudden favor of their goddess for no apparent reason, while other falls in disfavor.

The drow have learnt to live in this highly sadistic domain of their queen, they believe only in power over others and self-preservation. It is still a NE characteristic, but it also has an incline towards CE attributes, so much that it's not considered abnormal to have some CE activites going by on daily basis, the Drow react in a manner to these so they can benefit from them and possibly cause harm to others. The whole reason why the drow society has not began to develop towards LE or anywhere else is because of their goddess Lloth .. Their Queen will not allow this to happen, she will make sure that something crazy will keep coming up for her dear poor drow.

These said, it's most common to see PC's making neutral-evil drow because it's quite frankly the most obvious solution for any given situation. Chaotic-Evil is a common alignment for mostly the faithful fantatics, the paranoid, utterly powerhungry or the ones who have completely lost their sanity due to the above mentioned facts.

The clerics of Lloth, in my opinion, hold a lot of responssibility on their actions when playing in this setting, because the drow are -forced- to live in faith, there is no alternative choice for an individual of any race than to bow down to their demonic goddess. The drow by nature trust no-one else than themselfs, and eventhough their lifes are strictly subjected under the faith in spider queen, more often than not, it's not because of the power of faith but for the utter fear everyone has towards their goddess.

The whole society of the drow and how it can even function is a mystery, but Lloth has a big part in everything major. She makes sure that they do not completely destroy eachothers, but also stirring up the soup incase it seems to get too comfy. All in all: Power is the only thing that matters, such is how their goddess gained her position and her faithfuls follow under this example. Rules are made by the strongest people of status and power, and these rules are generally to be known fast, unless one wishes to give anyone above your own status an excuse to abuse you for their own personal agendas.

Hehe, sorry if it makes no sense. They have rules and laws!-.. But on the otherhand they have no rules and no laws!-.. Depends from which perspective you're looking at, more importantly, are you more powerful than the pillars upholding the rules?

I think someone has mentioned it a good couple of times already here in the forums; general rule of the drow is: DO NOT GET CAUGHT!

Begrudged courtesy is key. Basically, if you know your station is far above someone, you don't really need to be nice. If you are ever unsure, smile with gritted teeth. Of course, what happens in a dark tunnel, stays in a dark tunnel, but as a male, your goal is to become powerful enough in your rank and abilities that you garner respect. It also is basically never okay to piss off the church, too, so be nice while people are watching (typically if a yath is defeated by a male in private, she's not going to whine about it, as it would show her to be weak). Yath get to do as they like, within the allowance of their superiors.

I think the majority of what you need to know has been covered here. However, if in game send a tell to Nhileari, Kymilinear, or Korena Wyrmsong. These are all UD characters of mine and I will happily give you any advice you might need Same extends to your friends when they get round to joining in on the fun.

One thing I think you should keep in mind beside all the contributions above (great inputs guys):
Don't be afraid to err. You're char starts at lvl 1, that means he doesn't know exactly how to behave. What he haves, 120, 125, years? He's a kid! =P
A bit of flaying, a handful of ppl hating or despising you, it's all in bwael order. I learnd to rp drow... rp'ing drow. Took a long time to come naturally. Good luck and descend often! <3

Ilythiiri Dictionary
Ilythiiri Traditions
Creation of the Ilythiiri
Maerimydra History
Laws of Maerimydra

Not only are they helpful for the Yathrin every cycle, these notes also include things you'll generally want to know about the perspective and culture of the Drow, without getting too far in depth.

yaaaa.... Ilharess above yathrin!!

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. All the information is great, and it provides a really good explanation and summary for drow and their society. It's helped me to improve my character concept and given me a more confident outlook on how I will RP my character. I am sure that this thread will help many others down the road as it has helped me.

some other thoughts:

I think its possible to over emphasize the extremity of chaotic evil. not all chaotic evil characters have to be crazies. a CE char can be as mild in temperament as any other alignment

Also

youll find, that while we may play evil chracters, pretty much every single UD player I know who players here, is always making sure the evil rp aspect is fun for the victems involed.

also i dont think "they believe only in power over others and self-preservation"

they also believe in pleasure and hedonism... that means going to the inn and getting drunk... making love* to a stranger... taking drugs...  things that put self preservation at risk


*the forum changes the word ((sexx)) to love!! ^^

Hygge wrote:

In generel the UD-socialcode is a chaotic one but it does hold a deeper form of overall structure to it.

If you are a male you're at the bottom of the foodchain - often only one step above slaves - bow to everyone or risk being punished.

There is an overall hierachial order - even among males - however through RP you may be able to ascend through the ranks and deviate from that order.

If we are to list then in hierachial order from the top down AFAIK:

Ulathtallar (High priestess, Non-drow house priestess who serves Lolth above all else, woman.)
Illharess (House matrons)
Yathrin (Priestess, women)
Yath'abban (Those training to become priestesses, women)
Faern ( Men & women)
Faern apprentice (Men & women)
Warlocks (Men & women)
Bards (Men & women)
Arch Assassin (Man or woman)
Assassins (Men & women)
Sargtlin (Footsoldiers/Grunts, men & women)
Tradesmen (Men & women)
Slaves who are drow
Slaves of other races

Aside from these there is the whole noble vs non-noble (Shebali) rankings, as a rule of thumb then if as a houseless drow (non-noble) you see someone wearing the brooch of a noble house you bow no matter their station as it's best not to offend anyone if you wish to survive.

If you join the ranks of the nobles - only done through RP or application - there is a whole new hierachial order to learn aside from the one above.

I started out in the UD 6 months ago with little knowledge of how things were done there and I am still learning. The only way to really learn how things work down there is to roll up a drow or duergar and dive in to find out for yourself, if you make it a drow a Lolthite drow is recommended.

One Question regarding this though does a female sargtlin outrank a male faern? As far as I have been able to gather a male faern is only outranked by any Yath and another female faern of the same rank or higher, but I ended up in a discussion about it today OOCly so some answers on this would be welcome.

It's a fluid thing. She outranks him in some situations, but where magic is involved she absolutely does not.

Magic users gain immediate prestige. It also depends on WHO you are trying to impress with your rank.

Quote :

One Question regarding this though does a female sargtlin outrank a male faern? As far as I have been able to gather a male faern is only outranked by any Yath and another female faern of the same rank or higher, but I ended up in a discussion about it today OOCly so some answers on this would be welcome.

Not in the slightest. As a matter of principle, the male always shows courtesy to the female. But taking orders? Perhaps in the very specific context of a battle, but socially? Not unless the male is in particularly low favor, or is just an apprentice or such.

More in the lines of not being bossed around by the illharesses niece who is a ranger - Elvlyn is the senior faern of the house. But the question also arose back in the day when the shebali Elvlyn was a full Faern of the sorcere and a female shebali Velgam considered him of lower rank than herself because she was female. Some clearer guidelines on this - if possible - would be helpful.

Hygge wrote:

More in the lines of not being bossed around by the illharesses niece who is a ranger - Elvlyn is the senior faern of the house.

Now that? That's a gamble. It has less to do with her being a ranger and everything to do with her pull with an Ilharess. That isn't trouble anyone wants.

THAT is the context by which station is 'fluid'.

Quote :

But the question also arose back in the day when the shebali Elvlyn was a full Faern of the sorcere and a female shebali Velgam considered him of lower rank than herself because she was female.

Authority only extends to where it can be enforced. In the unusual case that she had some friends? Maybe something to be wary of. Some random female picking at a House Faern?

Petrify her ass, send her to the barracks with a pink bow.

Alright let me see if I got this right, the list I referred to before is correct meaning that a male House Faern is only outranked by females who are either Yath or House Faerns themselves? So he could boss a female House Velgam about for instance as long as she has no bloodrelation to the illharess?

From what I have read so far, female commoner basket-weaver > male house wizard

If a drow male joins a house, he may refuse orders of a female drow outside his house, but cannot give orders to any female unless that female is specifically assigned to him as her commanding officer by a female. Any consequence of a female abusing a male of a "higher station" would have to come from whatever female put said male in his position of power, in the case of a house wizard, his Illharess, unless that male was again her C.O. in some manner. I imagine there would be limitations to how the male could actually punish her, certainly not physical contact in any way.

Hygge wrote:

Alright let me see if I got this right, the list I referred to before is correct meaning that a male House Faern is only outranked by females who are either Yath or House Faerns themselves? So he could boss a female House Velgam about for instance as long as she has no bloodrelation to the illharess?

Well, an important thing to remember is the difference between 'rank' and 'social order', for lack of better ways to describe them.

Always give due courtesy to a Drow female that isn't a slave. That doesn't necessarily mean that you need to let one boss you around if they are of explicitly lower rank.

If someone has a blood relation to an Ilharess, you worry less about their rank and more about their relation to an Ilharess. Or any influential people they may be aware of.

Male Faern would be able to direct Female Velgam, yes. However, keep that sort of flexibility in mind. If she is in high favor, or particularly close to someone of influence, they may use that as leverage - the fact that you're reluctant to hurt them (to enforce your authority) might make them bold enough to deny you. Elsewise, you promptly demonstrate why Faern outrank Velgam.

I like to compare it to say western countries in the 19th or older centuries

It didnt matter how rich or how noble a woman was she still did not get to vote. All women were regarded as incapable of making rational political decisions

I think it should be like that with Drow. No male should be given any kind of ultimate political power. Of course some may acquire some but they have to be careful about flaunting it.

Males can be put in charge of some lesser departments (like MM or the Sorcere) but not of anything of any overall significance?