OOC Rant: The Underdark is too biased towards Lolthites OOCly

Posts : 599 Join date : 2012-12-08

I wanted to express my opinion about something that is bothering me.

As the title says, I am bothered that the Underdark basically supports only Lolthites and it wouldn't be so bad if it was only IC, the biggest offender is the Yathrin quest that gives you 2000 xp per reset.

As the fan-made guide to the Underdark says at one point: "if you want to play in the Underdark, make a Lolthite!".

I underdand (a bit) that Eilistraeens are not supported but at this point no other Drow/Underdark god is supported. The reason? That silly Lolthite-only quest.

There are no Ghaunadaurites, Kiaranshaleens or even Selvertamites. Why? Because it's not worth it being one, because that altar marks you as one and because you will struggle incredibly to get any xp compared to the Lolthites.
No matter your Bluff or RP, if you are a heretic and if you step into the altar area, the perfect lie detector rings.

Basically, either play a Lolthite or don't play in the Underdark.
Sure you are not "restricted" to play anything else but you are not rewarded for it. Lolthites get the big fat 2000xp quest per reset.

And that's one of the reasons we don't see many Svirfneblin, Duergar, Gray Orcs etc.
It's not the Underdark, it's the Lolthdark. >.>

To put it in perspective, it's like giving the Zhents/Banites a quest that resets twice a day for 2000xp. Everyone almost would be a Zhent/Banite.

Keep the IC bias towards Lolth but make the quest fair for everyone.
Make it ask questions about the Underdark or drow culture in general, not just Lolthites.

I could make a poll about it if others agree also. =)

I have no lore of the Underdark nor I have seen this quest on the work, but I think that if it brands you a heretic by walking near it (If that isn't possible by lore) should be removed (Just the alarm) otherwise.
I have no problem towards Lolth oriented quests in a Lolth city, you could ask for more variety within it, but there have to be some kind of difference from being a "Pure" drow with being a heretic. But that's just my hardcore gamer side talking.

Posts : 599 Join date : 2012-12-08

Basically it's the most rewarding quest giving you 200 xp per question for ten questions. Basically 2000 xp if you get all 10 questions right per server reset. Works only for Lolthites.

What I'm talking about is an altar to Lolth that "damages" you if you get close to it, with spiders if you are not a Lolthite. Not sure if such a thing exists in lore, so I cannot comment.

For example I would prefer if everyone could do that quest, even if you're not a Lolthite. Why shouldn't you be able to fake it if you're familiar with the lore but you're a follower of Selvertarm or Kiaranshalee for example?

How does the Yathrin know you're not one? You don't even get the choice to try, which is silly.

Posts : 1098 Join date : 2013-11-16 Age : 36

The altar thing is legit, most gods have the ability to exert a little influence around their altars if they so wish. Tempus for example can see the fate of every battle taking place within a hundred and twenty miles of an altar to him or something like that.

As for the quest, seems a bit unfair that such an easy access to 2k xp is present at all, let alone limited to Llothites since legitimately there's no way to tell most individual's faith by looking at them.

Posts : 599 Join date : 2012-12-08

I understand why such a quest was created. Surface characters mostly have the whole server to RP with, do quests or grind while Underdark ones only have Szith Morcane etc.

Still, I don't like that it OOCly locks you out of it if you're not a Lolthite. It would make some more sense if it was Drow/Half-Drow only since ICly the Yathrin would just refuse to talk to them.

Posts : 117 Join date : 2013-12-06

Posts : 1098 Join date : 2013-11-16 Age : 36

Verdana wrote:: I understand why such a quest was created. Surface characters mostly have the whole server to RP with, do quests or grind while Underdark ones only have Szith Morcane etc.

You do understand that especially over the last couple weeks there's far more people present in the underdark at any given time than in the surface hubs?

Posts : 599 Join date : 2012-12-08

That wasn't my point.
What I meant is that surface characters have a greater variety of quests while Underdark ones only have the Yathrin quest and the other ones that give 250-500xp each.

I just think that it gives Lolthite characters an unfair advantage over any other kind of Underdark characters for no IC reason.

Posts : 117 Join date : 2013-12-06

It's bad. We all know it's bad. We also know it isn't going to change.

The usual solution is to just reverse-meta it and just slap Lolth on the sheet. You're supposed to be pretending anyways.

Posts : 685 Join date : 2013-08-30

It is a Lolthite city in a Lolthite setting so of course Lolthites have advantages over nonlolthites. This was also discussed here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Posts : 478 Join date : 2013-09-28 Age : 33

The DMs have recognised that the xp reward is too great, more so now that there is actually a drow presence on the server again, and so they are going to be lowering it.

There are also plans to implement a quest giver for worshippers of other members of the Dark Seldarine (But not other gods)

Posts : 599 Join date : 2012-12-08

Hygge wrote:: It is a Lolthite city in a Lolthite setting so of course Lolthites have advantages over nonlolthites. This was also discussed here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Actually, I was not aware of that thread since I was busy with RL at that time.

While I agree that Lolthites should have advantages over heretics, those should be purely RP ones. Like social, political and religious power. Not having exclusive access to the super quest "because Lolthite".

I guess the best thing that could be done is make similar quest givers for Kiaranshaleens etc in another city perhaps or just "fake" worship to Lolth. *Shrugs*

Posts : 117 Join date : 2013-12-06

_Selvetarm_ wrote:: Put Lolth as your deity and worship something else so the scripts don't punish you.

This is pretty much the answer.

Also, just flat-out lowering the xp output (because you're not grinding enough) and introducing the litany of issues to be introduced with alternative deities? If it's balanced like everything else then, well...

OOC Rant: The Underdark is too biased towards Lolthites OOCly 1371883234625

OOC Rant: The Underdark is too biased towards Lolthites OOCly 1371883234625

Rickshaw wrote:: The DMs have recognised that the xp reward is too great, more so now that there is actually a drow presence on the server again, and so they are going to be lowering it.

There are also plans to implement a quest giver for worshippers of other members of the Dark Seldarine (But not other gods)

This sums it up. I should be back around in the next few days and there is a laundry list of issues to address, both in regards to scripting and player issues.

Verdana wrote:: There are no Ghaunadaurites, Kiaranshaleens or even Selvertamites

Selvegartlin here, Altar Might right as a lie detector but the Emote doesn't announce it to everyone around you. Get Epic, then just kill anyone who tries to start sum o dat dung.

Verdana wrote:: What I'm talking about is an altar to Lolth that "damages" you if you get close to it, with spiders if you are not a Lolthite. Not sure if such a thing exists in lore, so I cannot comment.

As per Underdark, the other Gods of the Drow Pantheon can hide their faithful when around Lolth-influence. How do you think spies get into the temples?

Lolth just doesn't go 'I AM ALL POWERFUL!' she's too fickle and uncaring to exert her influence like that, yet, in saying that, she does like to exert her influence. Just... -Not like that-.

Like I said, the altar Scripts were put in place because back in the day we had a lot of Heretics running around and no one was intelligent enough or cunning enough to figure them out. So now it's just the 'I Win' button for Team Lolth.

This wasn't directed towards you Verdana, I just needed your post as a basis in which to reply to Razz

Verdana wrote:: For example I would prefer if everyone could do that quest, even if you're not a Lolthite. Why shouldn't you be able to fake it if you're familiar with the lore but you're a follower of Selvertarm or Kiaranshalee for example?

You should be able to. In fact, that Cleric in the temple who asks you those questions should be KILLED for her heretical speeches.

Who created the World? Lolth.

Who is our Mistress? LOLTH.

Selda-what? There is only Lolth.

Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.

Are all valid answers.

Verdana wrote:: How does the Yathrin know you're not one?

She wouldn't, unless she tried to exhaust some of that Tasty Novel Plot Protagonist powers of 'I can see Gawds.'

Alkirin wrote:: The usual solution is to just reverse-meta it and just slap Lolth on the sheet. You're supposed to be pretending anyways.

Alkirin you're a good man for following my advice! Very Happy

Yes, do what is said above. Make your Deity Sheet say 'Lolth' but secretly worship another deity. It's the new Meta, Verdana. You can click on that glowing orb over the Altar to convert to Lolth too.

Posts : 2663 Join date : 2011-08-26

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

Alkirin wrote:: The usual solution is to just reverse-meta it and just slap Lolth on the sheet. You're supposed to be pretending anyways.

Alkirin you're a good man for following my advice! Very Happy

Yes, do what is said above. Make your Deity Sheet say 'Lolth' but secretly worship another deity. It's the new Meta, Verdana. You can click on that glowing orb over the Altar to convert to Lolth too.

Except other players on the server have to abide by the "play what's on your character sheet" rule. This solution is, in fact, cheating.

That being said, I agree largely with the OP. Sizth Morcane should be a Lolth-dominated setting, but there are other ways to go about making this the case.

Posts : 1952 Join date : 2011-05-01

Quote :: Except other players on the server have to abide by the "play what's on your character sheet" rule. This solution is, in fact, cheating.

THIS. Because if I lose my main char because of exactly that issue I don't understand why it's perfectly fine all of the sudden.

Either we are allowed some room to manouver in our character sheets, or it's very strict. You cannnot remove characters on one side, and turn a blind eye to others. That's just plain unfair.

Posts : 117 Join date : 2013-12-06

_Selvetarm_ wrote:: You should be able to. In fact, that Cleric in the temple who asks you those questions should be KILLED for her heretical speeches.

Who created the World? Lolth.

Who is our Mistress? LOLTH.

Selda-what? There is only Lolth.

Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.Lolth.

Are all valid answers.

This was the source of so much god damned rage when I first started at this quest. Before I stopped caring and just gamed the system for much-needed relief from grinding.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:: She wouldn't, unless she tried to exhaust some of that Tasty Novel Plot Protagonist powers of 'I can see Gawds.'

Given that the entire plot of some novels hinges on the fact that the true allegiance of a person is easily masked shy of divine intervention or plot device, you'd think the solution to this problem wouldn't be so difficult to determine.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:: Alkirin you're a good man for following my advice! Yes, do what is said above. Make your Deity Sheet say 'Lolth' but secretly worship another deity. It's the new Meta, Verdana. You can click on that glowing orb over the Altar to convert to Lolth too.

The glowing orb doesn't work (And you need alot of hp to survive the dialog anyways). Get DM assistance.

I'm surprised none have picked up on Chagrin so far lol.

I sense much butthurt approaching. Please, if you don't play in the UD, stay out of the UD topics as this doesn't involve you.

This topic is not a place to whine about your personal problems or the things that have happened to you for various reasons. It's a discussion among a small player base between the few about our considerations and expectations of the environment we play in along with the ideas and solutions we voice to fix them...

That being said... Continue.

Posts : 1249 Join date : 2011-07-19

The most obvious solution would be to add more quests to the UD so there is more then one, perhaps thats just me though. At least, that was my first reaction, then I thought about the fact that there is a quest in the UD that gives more XP to someone in a week then doing all the surface quests everywhere can in the same ammount of time. Then I realized I dont have a problem with that at all because I hate grinding and RPly grinding is terrible and makes little sense. More quests please.

Also, Hail LOLth.

Posts : 1098 Join date : 2013-11-16 Age : 36

That one quest in the UD in one day gives you more than all of the surface quests do combined in a week. Not exactly fair considering it completely nerfs the cost of having an ECL.

Posts : 651 Join date : 2012-08-31 Location : Sweden

You who put Lolth on your character sheets, but "really" worship another god, do you also RP any of the dangers involved in being "heretic"?
Some change around the favoritism toward Lolth is already advertised, if I'm not mistaken.
I would never put Lolth on my character sheet if playing a Vhaeraunite, for example. And if you really want to play a Vhaeraunite (with less of that desirable quest xp that follows as a consequence), you need him on your sheet.
I think that sounds reasonable.

EDIT: Rule #4 says: "You must role play what is on your character sheet."
EDIT 2: I sometimes cry when leveling up my duergar, but I can't run to the dm:s asking them to "put Lolth on my character sheet until I reach level 20". Razz

maseoo wrote:: EDIT: Rule #4 says: "You must role play what is on your character sheet."

Rule #4 Doesn't provide documentation of exemptions when it comes to Metagaming NPC's with God-like inclination of an individuals faith.

People here act like Drow are such a problem. "Buht Muh ECL!" It's like there's a raid every day with level 30 Drow going topside and killing all of the 'Innocent, not-so-epic' (lol) Surfacers with their +5 Gear and +20 Universal Save stacked items.

That, however, is just a fairy tale and non-existent. Instead you have people trying to salvage what little the UD portion of the server has left. Yes, you get a questionnaire that delivers 2,000 XP if you get the questions correct.

But... what the people who whine don't want to tell you, because they either don't know and are speaking out of their arse or are simply just uneducated... Is that these Questions are entirely random. With not-so-obvious answers that are Lore-breaking and immersion breaking. They are also subjected to Multi-classing Penalties. A man such as myself, only gets 169 XP per question. Capping out at 1690 XP instead of 2000. This is just with TWO classes as well. If you mess up, it's over. Making it so that you could very well just get 150-200 XP if you fail the first time and that's it...

All I ask is that the script, designed by the person who built the area, be changed so that it only outcasts Non-Drow and not a Deity-Selection. There is no way that Yathrin knows who you worship and you shouldn't be penalized for Metagaming NPC's.

I'm okay with the Altar 'Spider biting me'. That's fine. It does 8 Damage which is rather pathetic and just makes Demo laugh at the futile attempt. But you can be damn skippy that if any other Altar is put in this server, they should also burn anyone else who doesn't worship them. Just so it's fair.

Anything else people want to whine about?

My tuppence

maybe the Lolth questions quest should be lowered actually but to balance it out we do need some other quests in the UD but that is dependent on the work of builders so we cannot make demands on that front

im not sure it should be lowered until we get more quests....

ideally we could have a quest like that for all the major religions.... one for Bane, one for the Seldarine (altho we have the books quest) one at least for each temple in the server - but then those not given one would feel left out

lets face it the UD attendance has been up and down - ive been here several years and its has always gone up and down - i then switch to a surface char

i had a Selvetarm char a while back and i thought he could do the Lolth questions quest? Selvetarm followers should be able to as he is her minion

this is a Lolthite dominated city and when Lolthites dominate they D.O.M.I.N.A.T.E!!!

ALSO i would really like to see Sizth opened up to more races - like is ACTUALLY IN THE FR LORE for drow cities... In most Drow cities traders are allowed in - MOST FR DROW CITIES have 1%-2% HUMANS!

i have banged on about this on other threads and my Ilharess has previously worked to open the city up a bit

it should be noted i DO actually have a human character who trades in the city - made with DM permission

Max Hatchet wrote:: My tuppence

maybe the Lolth questions quest should be lowered actually but to balance it out we do need some other quests in the UD but that is dependent on the work of builders so we cannot make demands on that front

im not sure it should be lowered until we get more quests....

ideally we could have a quest like that for all the major religions.... one for Bane, one for the Seldarine (altho we have the books quest) one at least for each temple in the server - but then those not given one would feel left out

lets face it the UD attendance has been up and down - ive been here several years and its has always gone up and down - i then switch to a surface char

i had a Selvetarm char a while back and i thought he could do the Lolth questions quest? Selvetarm followers should be able to as he is her minion

this is a Lolthite dominated city and when Lolthites dominate they D.O.M.I.N.A.T.E!!!

ALSO i would really like to see Sizth opened up to more races - like is ACTUALLY IN THE FR LORE for drow cities... In most Drow cities traders are allowed in - MOST FR DROW CITIES have 1%-2% HUMANS!

i have banged on about this on other threads and my Ilharess has previously worked to open the city up a bit

I agree with this. I don't think the problem lies in the quest itself. I think it's made to make the ECL races slightly less of a hassle. As I'm playing one with double the ECL due to classes; I know there's a reason it is more difficult, and I chose it, but it really shouldn't be that much of a chore in my opinion.

I think the quest should be opened up to certain deities, such as selvetarm, or we make a secondary quest version for the non-UD races. I see that slaves shouldn't dominate the UD, however, if they had a quest that was different but with the same concept, possibly evened out or lowered significantly (but equivalent to a surfacers need) in EXP reward to reflect the harshness of the UD for slaves. Possibly the quests give slightly less XP than the surface quests do generally. I think it'd be better than not having any at all.

So, I think before we jump to lowering the exp, I think adding others/tweaking them to reflect how hard a slaves life would be, would be best.

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