Dabel'kith Attack Zau'Afin in Camp

@Lord Droke

Got it in one.

The IC reason behind this (Thous shall not do this) coming down from the top, is simple really, the Ulatha'Talla dos not want her soliders killing each other, they can do that after the city is won.

Lord Droke wrote:

Quote :

Menzo unique thing, they are the only City where House War is illegal.

House war is not legal or illegal. In Menzo or anywhere. The Nobles simply consider it uncouth to be caught fighting in the streets, this does not mean it does not happen.

It is not ilegal to engage in house war. It is not illegal to loose a house war or win one. There is no law. Lolth punishes failure with death, it is her way. You fight a house war and leave survivors to point fingers at you, you have failed. That is it. No law, no legality.

Remember - it is only the house Nobles that possess the power of accusation.

That being said; hopefully some of the plots I'll be introducing will have you all looking inward rather than outward ! Some players have been very eager to do some things, and I'll be doing my best EST time wise to make those things happen!

Umbra

(And Forgive me yet again for no Dos Usstan and Xas stuff; I doubt I'll get used to it in the forseeable future either.)

@Shadowwolf


1.

I'm trying to make it fairer, Yath from what I understand police the drow culture, but having each group of the social ladder, police its self I think it should work, possibly with crimes being delt withing a social circle and only going up the ladder when the need arrises for more serious crimes.

2. AGREE, camp is owned and ran by the Camp Illharess, aidded by the qulliaen ambassitors from each Qu'ella, people can help enforce exsisting rules, but the only authority in camp, for the camp is the camp Illharess.

3. ~polish's his throne.

Tibus_Heth wrote:

Arjay wrote:

///Okay, can we stop OOCly spreading that non-truth? The higher-ups in the church are not associated with one house. DK has one yath'tallar, the other left Zau'afin and is neutral. Demo'loth throwing that about IC is one thing, but let's not OOCly act like that's the truth.

This ruling places rather a lot of power in the hands of Yathrin, which the Dabel'kith do have a relative abundance of. It's not a complaint, it's a statement of fact. It also makes for quite a concrete benefit for Daughters, which Dabel'kith again have a relative abundance of (I actually like this bit, the station should carry some weight).

Agreeing with Tibus here - my statement that Dabel'kith have a (well put, Tibus) relative abundance of Yath'rin (they can only have one Yath'taller after all) was not an accusation, merely an observation. And if I understand the Yath'taller position correctly, you do have to be sworn to a house to hold the position.

Over to Defiler's points:

DM Defiler wrote:

the purpose of the laws is main in two parts:

1) to add more too the expirence and feel of playing in the underdark and a drow.

Always good! TBH, I can't see that going wrong, so I'mma just shelve that as "goal accomplished" the moment the ruleset hits.

DM Defiler wrote:

2) to prevent unplesent things that have happened in the past happening again which are not up for discussion here, their in the past, dead and burryed as far as im conerned, which also links into the first goal.

I can make an (un)educated guess as to what you're talking about, but frankly, without further clarification, this leaves me uncertain. I'll label it as an OOC preventative measure, though without precisely knowing what we're looking to prevent (House War? OOC drama?), I'm not entirely sure how to contribute to the OOC measure. You* are of course welcome to tell me that this is fine and tell me to STFU in regards to that matter (and I'll be happy to accept that), but I'm curious where the line between "discussion" and "clarification" goes. At any rate, since I'm unable to discuss the OOC aspects, let's look at the IC stuff.

DM Defiler wrote:

Yes Driderdom is pretty much character death, you stop playing your character and a npx monster if added which will get used in plot and stuff. (please not no single on dm can decide this, will require all UD DM's too agree on driderdom)

Assuming the Driderdom goes ahead (execution brings its own unique troubles, after all), I'm thinking that the victim/criminal be handed over to the Ut'ath'taller for punishment, which would require a special ritual - here trying to tie into the canon of "utter failure to Lloth" to deserve it. This also gives the person time to escape if they choose to be KoS, and a friendly NPC guard can be beaten to a bloody pulp for his failure when that happens.

DM Defiler wrote:

I agree full heartly with smaller punishments first and kinda was just focusing on the end game thinking the qu'ellas, all three of the player Qu'ellas, can take care of their own, and will have dm surport should they have problematic players that need dealing with (which I know their wont be because your all awsome.)

what else, mmmm gold fines will be steep, sorry, campillharess and ultha'talla are being greedy and want too fund the war effort so you can expect fines to be something like 10 k, 20, 50,000 k.

Seems about fair - I'd suggest some leeway offered both to ensure that the system remains corruptible and to have an OOC excuse to go easy on lower-levels/houseless without enough cash. Perhaps the classic mobster's vig, where you pay an extorbitant (20-50%) interest per week - miss the payment, it gets added to the principal, meaning future payments just became that much harder to meet. Miss multiple payments, and it gets taken out of your skin instead. I'm sure there's a way to convert levels into power essences or attributes into elemental essences, or something.
loss of items as I mentioned will not be deleted, they will be cirulated back into game one way or another, if you can not pay the fine.
And, of course, if the fine is going to be paid down, that has to be paid ON TOP of the weekly rent. On the plus side, manage that and your future payments will at least be a little smaller.


*: General You

Quote :

I'm trying to make it fairer, Yath from what I understand police the drow culture, but having each group of the social ladder, police its self I think it should work, possibly with crimes being delt withing a social circle and only going up the ladder when the need arrises for more serious crimes

My concern with this is that all we have done now is negated the need for a Quellar and have made being anything but a Yath of little influence... since with this ruling what you have done is give any Yathrin or above power to order pretty much anyone else around that is not Yath. Every Jaluk or Jalil non Yath now has no real avenue to power or reason to hold rank since any ... any Yath can order you around. I agree with the steps to negate the disrespect... I am just unsure of the rest.

What I see is Yath A orders Member B to do something.. Member B says I have orders from my House Yath and can not disobey... Yath A gets fustrated and looks for Yath'tallar A to come and countermand order of Yath B.... Because I do see this happening since as I previously stated... our Yath do not understand the division of House and Church.

Yath police the Preaching of Malla Lolth on her people and they enforce this through the Eyes of Lolth, Dread Fang and the Yath'sargtlin.

Like I said I am on the fence with this.

My brain hurts...why does this need to be so complicated?

STFU


Naaa just kidding

Basicly your most likely right one way or the other, but I do not want tha past being brought up and taking over this thread so lets drop the past and chit chat about this



Driderdom, is an option, the play may escape and flee too the surface, and will be given the chance to work hard, and I mean damn hard to get back in, and even then its not a sure bet as something like each Illharess, the yath would have too singly agree. (might happen, would have to be something frigging awsome, we'll talk more on it, if it ever happens)

as too the Yathtaller postion, to be perfectly honest I am considering reviewing that rule, to something like illharess can hold a yathtaller title, and there can be a second yath taller that actually tends solely too the yath matters of the qu'ella and sits on the council table and is the qu'ellas ambasitor ect. for now DM rules stand, however with all changes, those that had things before the a new rule are grandfathered in, and are the last. anyhow, things, plans and plots on that, ill keep you post in antoher thread when this topic comes up in the future

Lord Droke wrote:

House war is not legal or illegal. In Menzo or anywhere. The Nobles simply consider it uncouth to be caught fighting in the streets, this does not mean it does not happen.

My bad, thought I remembered something about the Menzo ruling council having issued some dictat barring it and thus Baenre having to do their stuff extra-sneaky. Perfectly happy to be wrong, I'm more up to speed on sourcebook stuff than novel stuff, if I'm honest.

DM Defiler wrote:

Yes Driderdom is pretty much character death, you stop playing your character and a npx monster if added which will get used in plot and stuff. (please not no single on dm can decide this, will require all UD DM's too agree on driderdom)

My issue with the Driderdom thing is that lore-wise it's a direct punishment from Lolth for failure, and in this case is being used as a punishment for breach of semi-secular law. If you want permadeath to be the punishment that's all fine, I just think it should be done by execution (i.e. sacrifice) as opposed to transformation.

Shadowwolf wrote:

we have allowed the Yath to be the catch all for power.. and in essence have regulated our Mages and Others to a role of no importance. I do have an issue when I see one House order another House around and figure they should be able to when they are a Yath... It is wrong. Since the majority of our Yath can not divide House and Church then I think we as players should.

Honestly I think that's two different issues. The issue with others having no relevance is a definite problem and by and large comes down to ignoring the fact that Drow respect personal power a great deal. Raye'khan makes Naralia brick herself, despite not flexing his muscles much, because he is a Quel'faeruk - one of the most magically potent things in any given Drow city, and it's a resonable assumption he can turn her inside out with a magic word and summon demons to dance on her entrails. It's nigh-on the highest position a male can attain in Drow society. That should carry some weight.

The 'Yath ordering House Members about thing' isn't exactly wrong as such. It's not necessarily how it happens in other Drow cities, but the political structure in the DB Underdark (as far as Drow go) has evolved to emphasise an exteremly close-knit and dominant Temple, and undermine the importance and power of the Quellar, and Quellar-specific ranks. An Ilharess in DB has arguably less power than her Yath'tallar, and basically any priestess can assume control of any given group of Drow. All this has evolved (largely) IC.

Part of the cause of that 'problem' is that in a normal Drow city, Zau'afin and Dabel'kith wouldn't interact as they do on a day-to-day basis, they would stare daggers at eachother over the council table and only leave their Quellar compounds in a group consisting of a Yath or two and a squad of guards, at the minimum. The situation where there's a random portal spewing undead in the market square and there's four Zau'afin Quellar members and one Dabel'kith Yath just, theoretically, shouldn't happen. It does, however, because this is a PW and not a sourcebook. The real problem is when everyone but the present Yath and their inner circle become chump blockers for whatever event happens.

I am quite agreeable to Driderdom. To be honest, I do not agree with perma-death or retirement. I do however think we need an OOC rule in place to discourage certain actions. Death plane, torture, whatever, is ineffective in our server based environment.

From and OOC view, Driderdom, so long as it is heavily guided by DMs is a perfect way to handle this. From an IC view, it gives us a fate worse than death to fear. Something we can truly fear IC. An OOC and IC deterent, with rules to keep it fair. Works for me. So do the fines.

//Bear in mind that I'm fairly new to Drow culture - while I've tried to read up, I still use the primers from in-game heavily.

From what I understand, any member of the church technically outranks any non-member of the church - but as with the gender divide, there's a number of variables that come into play that can upset this.

When a Church member (and/or member of a rival house) bosses around a technical underling, this is a veiled challenge against the House - a slap in the face, so to speak, to gauge their reaction. Given the disrepancies between actual power and perceived power (ie, a houseless Yath'abban is very much only a technical superior to any house member, be they noble or retainer), the house will then respond as they see fit - not enough of a response will cause them to appear weak and make more (and less powerful) rivals challenge them. Too overt a response, and they are in trouble from any number of foes with actual power, like an Ul'ath'taller who cannot afford to have the church look weak.

And then you get to add the exciting infighting (following similar patterns) in the Yath and the various houses - which all adds up to a tightly woven web of intrigue that functions - but is incredibly dysfunctional in terms of the amount of cruelty, pain, and intrigue that's used as an ingredient to even make the whole thing work.

The problem is, in translating that from beautiful fiction to practical application - and especially to any multiplayer org that is primarily player-run (as noted, DMs cannot be around 24/7), you have to set the bar a little lower to ensure that players get it - and then there's the point of why plot if nobody gets to see how awesome you are? So it gets simplified further. Until finally the bullying nature of the Drow (and they are bullies, make no mistake) is rendered in kindergarden primaries rather than in a murky mess of grey you'd need Darkvision to peer through.


Also what Tibus said.

It seems to me we are wasting a lot of effort with new rules and laws. I would much rather see our DM staff spend their time with stories and plots and furthering the UD rp as a whole. Instead what we as players are doing is forcing our UD staff into babysitter roles.

I think I see now why so many UD DMs come and go...us players act like children and drive our UD staff away.

We have a new UD DM and already we have forced him into rewriting rules and laws and keeping children from fighting each other. How long before we drive DM Defiler away?

At some point us players need to grow up...last I checked we were all adults. When will we start acting like adults and communicate nicely with each other?

I think it is the chaos of Drow Lore that is the basic problem here.

This is not fun anymore...

Perhaps Nanga should be the first Drider? She was once a Moondancer right?

@Naralia - My issue with the Driderdom thing is that lore-wise it's a direct punishment from Lolth for failure, and in this case is being used as a punishment for breach of semi-secular law. If you want permadeath to be the punishment that's all fine, I just think it should be done by execution (i.e. sacrifice) as opposed to transformation.

The fact is at the moment the reason why the big gun is being pulled out (and this is purely ic logic of the ulthatalla) is too scare people shitless into obeying, yes it is a punishment from lolth and it will be the Ultha'talla herself that leads the ritual to start the process, her logic being, if my forces of tearing each other apart then they are not focusing on lolth's fallen city, and thus an example must and will be paid that lolth comes first in her eyes.

@Lord Droke - I am quite agreeable to Driderdom. To be honest, I do not agree with perma-death or retirement. I do however think we need an OOC rule in place to discourage certain actions. Death plane, torture, whatever, is ineffective in our server based environment.

From and OOC view, Driderdom, so long as it is heavily guided by DMs is a perfect way to handle this. From an IC view, it gives us a fate worse than death to fear. Something we can truly fear IC. An OOC and IC deterent, with rules to keep it fair. Works for me. So do the fines.

As much as I would love players to play their Drider toons, and I mean, i would love it, its just not possible due too game mechanic limitations, i have already posken too Mustang and a builder too see if this is possible which it is not unfortently.

Thus the option of character retirement/character becomes immortilized as a npc or exile and continuing playing with a chance of undoing what was done though effort and rp. so the players can decide what they want.

@Vilesinger (EDIT)

A game is only as good as the parts that make it run, the rules I belive are needed so the fun aspects can take place, that simple really.

@ The Awsome fence Sitter that is Shadowwolf

got any ideas who to impliment a system? as I am trying to put it that qu'ellas rule themselves, the camp yath is not a seprate faction but a meeting place of whorship for all the qu'ella yath and a place that yathabban can come and petition for spouncership and perhaps entry into a Qu'ella. thats what im hoping for. kinda like gangs rulling their own turf and the camp being rule by the big gang with uzzis and boozas who force the smaller gangs to respect the peace on their turf, or they put a cap in their ass yol!.... sorry...

DM Defiler wrote:

got any ideas who to impliment a system? as I am trying to put it that qu'ellas rule themselves, the camp yath is not a seprate faction but a meeting place of whorship for all the qu'ella yath and a place that yathabban can come and petition for spouncership and perhaps entry into a Qu'ella. thats what im hoping for. kinda like gangs rulling their own turf and the camp being rule by the big gang with uzzis and boozas who force the smaller gangs to respect the peace on their turf, or they put a cap in their ass yol!.... sorry...

This is, imo, exactly how Drow society works - the Quellar are gangs, they rule their own areas by might and might alone.

My personal line of thinking would be to separate the City rulership (I know we're not in the City at the moment, but the Drow of the camp clearly see themselves as the rulers-in-exile of Maerymdira) and the Temple slightly. At the moment the Yath Council is in charge of everything, when they should be in charge of religious proclamations and interpretations of dogma and scripture. I say rip off the Menzo model slightly, and have the ruling body be a council of the Ilharesses, with the Yath'tallars added to the table to a) reflect the hyper-Yath-focused environment players have developed and b) bulk up the numbers. That's ten seats, at current numbers.

It would help if all the Quellars weren't miles apart physically, but hopefully once one of the City elements is retaken we can...teleport them or something. The whole thing will make more sense if the region around each Quellar is patrolled by their guards with Yath'sargtlin defending the temple. Would also open up interesting political play regarding patrol responsibilities for certain areas - who defends what gate etc. But getting OT here.

NB: +1 for Nanga-Drider, just for the cries of 'Why am I not preeetttyyy! *sob*'

Tibus_Heth wrote:

snip. .

+1

Same can be said about commoners interacting with nobles as usually the most the two interact is the noble telling the commoner to get the hell out of its way.

Generally there needs to be some aspect of balance between the quellar and yath as you drop the power the yath have and then you get random people using that protection to go yath bashing, throwing insults then hiding behind their proections which is the single most annyoing thing I have had to deal with.
If it leans too much towards the yath side then you get well yathrins holding more power than an illharess.

As tibus said normally the yath don't leave the quellar by themselves, think of them as like the CEO's of companies, they dont often go around to do the legwork and when they do they sure as hell bring a force with them. This is why normally the yath delegate legword to the yath'sargtlins and dread fangs. Its just a bit less viable here for obvious reasosn

As a (possibly less than idle) question
- a failed or false accusation under these laws is essentially attempted worse-than-murder, as it would transform the accused into a Drider. Under the laws as written, this really, REALLY means the accuser had better be certain, because murder or attempted is punishable by drider-dom. Is that deliberate?

- as a curiosity, how are characters speaking in their own defence going to be handled? Pure RP, or the rolls going to matter at all - and if so, that's going to really, really favor established characters, which OOC, is well and good, but IC, is, the usual, DRAMA.

Tibus_Heth wrote:

+1 for Nanga-Drider, just for the cries of 'Why am I not preeetttyyy! *sob*'

*smirks*

But honestly, if any PC deserves to become a Drider it would be a moondancer, not some random male who told a priestess to Vith off.

I have a strange idea...*light bulb*

Let us blow up the camp. Kill off most of the NPCs and the ruling Ilharess. Push the Ul'ath'tallar to that big temple in Sschindy. Let IC actions result in true IC consequences. Let the que'llars move around in gangs or packs. If random male wants to disrespect female or Yath then let the fugue fill up with souls. Instead of making up so many rules and guidelines for PC to PC relations, take them ALL away. Let the strong survive outside of Sschindy. Malla Lolth enjoys her chaos right? Standard server rules for PvP remain in place. Set the NPC guards in Sschindy to defender faction or whatever it is in the toolset that makes the guards auto attack any PC near them that engages in PvP. Make the SSchindy NPCs lvl 30 with epic equipment. Keep the storage and auctioneer NPCs in the camp.



If PC XXX makes enemies through IC actions then let that PC deal with the consequences forever, Or RP with the enemies to fix their relations. If Que'llar DK or PC of DK wants to kill a Zau'afin slave then let them do it and face the IC results. Open up the UD to a true RP environment not a place filled with so many complicated rules and laws. If the Jaelre faction wants to come back to the UD let them! They can move about in their own packs or gangs for safety. If que’llar XXX wants to war que’llar YYY then let them. Let politics truly happen through RP not forced due to NPC rules and laws. If Demo’loth wants to anger the Yath’tallar of Dabel’kith, an opposing Noble family then let him! Let politics and the Noble family Zau’afin deal with the IC consequences. If Yath’tallar Mi’reli wants to put Demo’loth on the altar then let her try it! She can gather her gang and hunt down the insolent male then deal with the IC consequences. If the Quel’faeruk of Dabel’kith wants to flex his powerful magic and show why a male wizard should be feared and respected then let him! If Nanga throws hot tea into Edrik’s face again then let Edrik reach out and smack her. Vith all these silly restrictive rules, all they are really doing is suppressing our RP and causing overwhelming burden on our UD staff.

When the lost city is finally built and ready for retaking, then let the Ul’ath’tallar flex her strength. Then the full power of Lolth and her priestesses can descend upon the que’llars and force them into submission and direct the war efforts through RP.

Kind Regards

Vilesinger

+1 vilesinger

It sure is fun to play an assassin that, due to one rule or another, isn't allowed to assassinate.

I hear that. Even without all the rules, the fact that death has no consequence does make the role a bit, well, redundant.

Quote :

As much as I would love players to play their Drider toons

It would be nice boss, but it would not fit. Driders have almost animal intelligence. Very little to no memories remain from the original drow. If a player were allowed to play a drider, they would not be playing the same charcter in a sense. So IMO, it would be nice, but would not fit. I have also been on server where a PC is turned drider. The player and those around them, do not tend to do it right. i.e., grinding wiith the drider, conversations with the drider, drinking wiht the drider, etc.

Driderism should be retirement, with only a miracle to bring back the character. IMO

If we are going to be making more new rules. Might as well work in an assassination system into the current server wide PVP rules. Assassination is something drives drow society, and we do overlook it and do not utilize it do to game mechanics and persistant world effects. Finding away to handle it may help make those PCs much more useful.

Gin holds her assassins in high regard and she would use them to kill, if it would do any good IC. Currently it will not, so I use them as spys.

Okay, can we stop with any suggestions of 'just let the strong survive'? That's going to open up arguements that we've all heard before, including the 'RP build vs. PvP monster' or 'characters that shouldn't have lived past level 5' and frankly I'm sick to DEATH of all that crap.

Lolth loves chaos.

The server and its players do not.

Given that we can't have the traditional setup for certain offices of power (IE: Mages are never seen outside their towers except with guards, the houses are always traveling as a whole), we CAN NOT just use the "Oh, let the strong survive" arguement.

Yes, it does irritate me a lot of the time that, playing a non-priestess, my character really has zero importance. But that's a separate issue from what's being discussed here. What's discussed here is acting like a Drow would be expected to, showing respect publicly to the church and not doing things that would earn you a beating or worse.

Let's bear in mind that no house would want ANY other house to think that Lolth didn't favor them, as that would lead to being attacked and wiped out. Having a bunch of members who blatantly disrespect priestesses gives EXACTLY that impression.

And frankly, yes. If Driderdom is a possibility, Nanga should have been skittering the tunnels for a long time now. That didn't happen, though, so... well, that's up to where the RP goes.

Arjay wrote:

Okay, can we stop with any suggestions of 'just let the strong survive'? That's going to open up arguements that we've all heard before, including the 'RP build vs. PvP monster' or 'characters that shouldn't have lived past level 5' and frankly I'm sick to DEATH of all that crap.

Lolth loves chaos.

The server and its players do not.

Given that we can't have the traditional setup for certain offices of power (IE: Mages are never seen outside their towers except with guards, the houses are always traveling as a whole), we CAN NOT just use the "Oh, let the strong survive" arguement.

Yes, it does irritate me a lot of the time that, playing a non-priestess, my character really has zero importance. But that's a separate issue from what's being discussed here. What's discussed here is acting like a Drow would be expected to, showing respect publicly to the church and not doing things that would earn you a beating or worse.

Let's bear in mind that no house would want ANY other house to think that Lolth didn't favoUr them, as that would lead to being attacked and wiped out. Having a bunch of members who blatantly disrespect priestesses gives EXACTLY that impression.

And frankly, yes. If Driderdom is a possibility, Nanga should have been skittering the tunnels for a long time now. That didn't happen, though, so... well, that's up to where the RP goes.

I would agree with this.

Arjay wrote:

Okay, can we stop with any suggestions of 'just let the strong survive'? That's going to open up arguements that we've all heard before, including the 'RP build vs. PvP monster' or 'characters that shouldn't have lived past level 5' and frankly I'm sick to DEATH of all that crap.

Mostly +1, if a little less vehemently. PVP has a place in a Drow setting, but it needs to be regulated to ensure the game is still fun. This is, however, not really a UD-specific issue - Dalelands Beyond has a fairly well documented issue with relative player power levels and the abysmal translation of the 3.5e ruleset to PVP.

Arjay wrote:

Yes, it does irritate me a lot of the time that, playing a non-priestess, my character really has zero importance. But that's a separate issue from what's being discussed here. What's discussed here is acting like a Drow would be expected to, showing respect publicly to the church and not doing things that would earn you a beating or worse.

I'd disagree, actually. On an OOC level it's just as important that a Yath'abban shows a Quel'faeruk the appropriate respect as a Sargtlin showing it to a Yath'tallar. Both are important parts of the setting, like Elves hating Orcs and whatnot.

Arjay wrote:

Let's bear in mind that no house would want ANY other house to think that Lolth didn't favor them, as that would lead to being attacked and wiped out. Having a bunch of members who blatantly disrespect priestesses gives EXACTLY that impression.

Kinda. The fact is, lorewise, almost half the Drow Cities out there have had some kind of revolutionary diversion from the 'core' society because of a Yath that couldn't control the rest of society, or pushed said society to breaking point. I'd argue it's unreasonable to just 'assume' respect when there have been Yath who make a good argument for Vhaeraun to Naralia, never mind a Jaluk. [disclaimer: Since a lot of this is revolving around That Event between Those Two, I am absolutely not referring to Mi'reli with that comment] If the Yath screw up, they should face the consequences. I'm not advocating we all start wearing masks or stripping at the moon, but I think it's important to remember that the Priesthood's stranglehold on society is earned. Look what happened during the Silence.

Arjay wrote:

And frankly, yes. If Driderdom is a possibility, Nanga should have been skittering the tunnels for a long time now. That didn't happen, though, so... well, that's up to where the RP goes.

DM Defiler wrote:

I do not want tha past being brought up and taking over this thread so lets drop the past and chit chat about this

May I point out that I wasn't the one who brought that last point up? As I said, it's up to where the RP goes.

Point taken, I just wanted to stop the ball before it started rolling and I was already quoting you.