Surfacing is a big deal

Quote :

I gotta disagree with this, a player should always be allowed to jump ship if they find it unplayable, RP be damned. Like Jakunen said, there should always be some method of escape.

That said yes, I do agree with you about the actual slave characters on the surface. Not only is this pretty nonsensical irresponsibility of the drow for letting them wander so far, it doesn't make any real sense why slaves would ever be willing to return. Yes, stockholme syndrome exists. But I don't think that every slave would suffer from it.

Also I don't think the entrance of the mines should be off limits to surfacers just by virtue of leading into the underdark. Yeah, anything past the mines themselves, sure, fair game I guess, they knew what they were getting into. But the mines are only a few steps away from daylight, there's dozens of tunnels beyond the mine itself to take before you even get into the actual UD. The old skull cavern in comparison is a single locked door away from the heart of the underdark, and nobody ever seems to complain about surfacers being in there.

I will remember this if any of my characters get captured by Zhents/defenders/drow. As a matter of fact i will just take my toon who is banned from SD walk in there with all the DM's watching, taunt the gaurds then walk out of jail or spawn back in the UD because i wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies.

Sounds like a jolly good time. Immersive and it totally is not metagaming. Nor does it break any of the server rules!

GholaMan wrote:

I will remember this if any of my characters get captured by Zhents/defenders/drow. As a matter of fact i will just take my toon who is banned from SD walk in there with all the DM's watching, taunt the gaurds then walk out of jail or spawn back in the UD because i wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies.

Sounds like a jolly good time. Immersive and it totally is not metagaming. Nor does it break any of the server rules!

Yep that's clearly exactly what I meant, walk into Shadowdale and insult everyone then expect nothing to happen.

I'm saying I don't think we should need to wait for DM approval to do anything and everything. If you think something isn't working and the other players involved are being uncooperative, bail, tell the players involved you're sorry it ended how it did and everyone can just move on; they can act as if that character escaped and is extra hated for it, wanted dead, whatever. I'm not suggesting to be able to waltz into a town and taunt people and teleport away without repercussions.

Jakunen wrote:

That sounds like a horrible mess of an idea that would only result in characters getting locked away for long periods of time in situations only slightly better than they'd face if jailed by the Zhentarim or Akh'Velahr.

Friends formulate a rescue attempt.... they execute it (likely with the go-ahead from a DM).... only to have the player faction refuse to let the captive go? No way.

The captive works on their own escape plan.... has some awesome RP with the player faction... escapes back to the surface ... only to be kicked back into the UD by a DM? Also no way.

What I think Lambert is saying, certainly what I think, is that if someone gets captured, especially in the UD, they should be rescued, or escape, in order to get free. Simply wandering off to the surface temporarily is even more bad form than actual Drow doing it, and ambling out of the Underdark permanently either on foot or by using a surface spawn point come reset is as meta-gaming as doing the same from a Shadowdale/Myth Drannor prison cell IMO. Entering the UD as a surfacer should the same as a Defender wandering into Shadowdale territory.

I know I've only been on the server a short while, but I've already come across the issue with people consenting to capture, then ambling off when they feel they've seen enough. I've also seen surface folks scouting invisibly past the NPC Drow guards, then intentionally running up to now-hostile guard creatures when the fight starts to make sure they get fugued and promptly respawning on the surface. I personally don't see why Drow guards should be any different to surface ones, especially since they actually have an IC ability to see through invisibility.

Drow shouldn't - and as I understand it can't under the rules - capture on the surface without consent in any case so if you don't want to play a captive don't give consent. Even in the UD there are 'capture outs' - if you really don't want to play a captive send a tell and most Drow I think would be fine with simply putting a bolt in your back on escape attempt no. 3 for just being more trouble than it's worth IC (random example). The problem isn't people not being captured in the first place, it's people being captured and then deciding that they're bored or have enough intel and leaving without RPing the escape.

DoBarrelRolls wrote:

Also I don't think the entrance of the mines should be off limits to surfacers just by virtue of leading into the underdark. Yeah, anything past the mines themselves, sure, fair game I guess, they knew what they were getting into.

Personally I'd say make the mine a 'grey area'. Entering by either side is conflict consent, but doesn't require specific DM approval? Make the well transition the border for Surfacers, and the mine exit the border for Underdarkers. I mean, going and mining/hunting elementals in a mine known to have broken into the Underdark should carry risk, right?

Lambert wrote:

I would also suggest that captured surfacers from raids, especially ones who venture into the UD, should never be allowed to leave the UD unless they have the permission of staff and the player faction that captured them, if we are going to keep this UD concept lore based and respectable.

After all, that is why people avoid the UD generally, to avoid the enslavement issue. I find too many captured players or Rothe just play on the surface then switch to the UD when they are bored, and often bring up the secrets and laundry of the UD to the surface. It happens so regularly there might as well be a newspaper on the surface called the Drow Times. Surfacerers seem to know more about what is happening in the UD then I did in the past at times.

And the reason the drow avoid the surface is a swift death. Are we going to try and enforce perma-death on drow that come to the surface and get killed? Of course not, that would be quite silly.

If a player consents to being captured, they should accept being captured and go along with it. That being said, if they get stuck down in the UD with nothing to do and being forgotten or overall losing interest in the character, they should be able to talk to their captors OOC and manage a way to get out of the situation. If a player doesnt want to rp being captured, just kill them and move on.

Past that, giving more power to players to rule over other players is just a recipe for disaster.

Quote :

Yep that's clearly exactly what I meant, walk into Shadowdale and insult everyone then expect nothing to happen.

I'm saying I don't think we should need to wait for DM approval to do anything and everything. If you think something isn't working and the other players involved are being uncooperative, bail, tell the players involved you're sorry it ended how it did and everyone can just move on; they can act as if that character escaped and is extra hated for it, wanted dead, whatever. I'm not suggesting to be able to waltz into a town and taunt people and teleport away without repercussions.

So i dont need DM approval to leave SD or MD if my UD toon is captured? What your saying is tantamount to god-modding and metagaming. If your a defender and you get captured by Zhents, there has to be some method of escape. How could you just say 'i dont feel like doing this anymore' *respawn at starting point* Under what RP justification do you bypass their security the rest of the city and make it back to MD in one piece?

Why would it be any differant if your captured by a drow house? If someone consented to being captured then just magically vanish because 'sorry this isnt working out' I know i would complain to the DM's about a player's behavior if they were my prisoner and then decided to spawn somewhere else, bypassing every obsticle for them.

GholaMan wrote:

If your a defender and you get captured by Zhents, there has to be some method of escape. How could you just say 'i dont feel like doing this anymore' *respawn at starting point* Under what RP justification do you bypass their security the rest of the city and make it back to MD in one piece?

Why would it be any differant if your captured by a drow house? If someone consented to being captured then just magically vanish because 'sorry this isnt working out' I know i would complain to the DM's about a player's behavior if they were my prisoner and then decided to spawn somewhere else, bypassing every obsticle for them.

The justification is the player requesting an out for a situation they are uncomfortable with and those they are playing with not giving them one. I would like to think no one is actually doing this, but it has certainly happened before around here.

What seemed to be being suggested is that we should have to petition a DM for that out, which is what worried me.

Edit: Again, I am not saying its okay for anyone to do this as an excuse to avoid RP.

I think the most important thing you all seem to be missing here is that RP is supposed to be enjoyable for the player of the character. That doesn't just mean your character that owns the slave or prisoner, but for the player of that slave or prisoner too. If my character was being held in a prison for a week, I might want to actually play somewhere else besides the prison cells where being held at. I'm not actually in prison here, this is a game that I am playing for fun. I don't personally want to feel like I am actually being punished like this on a game that I am playing for fun. This actually takes the fun out of the game. Sure being thrown in prison for a few hours or even a day is great for RP, but after some time I might be ready to move on and do something else. I don't really want my gameplay to be beholden to another player who is off having their fun but doesn't want to let me out yet. Same for being a drow slave or prisoner. Maybe they want to RP a slave for awhile, but perhaps after playing for awhile they are ready to move on from that RP to something else. I don't think any other player has the right to force someone to continue RP that another player no longer enjoys. If they are requesting an out, one should be given. They are not actually your slave or prisoner, they are another player who has chosen to RP that with you. For that you should thank them for their RP if they decide to move on. Be greatful they allowed themselves to be a part of that RP at all.

Lambert wrote:

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

+4
but,

Surfacers who go down should forfeit an rp out of a fight. If they loose they can, opt out of torture/slavery, but not quick sacrifice. (and of course sacrifice isn't permanent. someone one time said it was once, i disagree ((unless the surfacer wants it to be permanent )) )

Drow who go up should forfeit their rp out of a fight. They should also be able to opt out of torture/slavery, but not a quick public execution. (which also would be non permanent ((unless the drow wanted it to be permanent )))

All slain should be provided an ooc rez

I don't see much harm in a fight if its quick and neither party sustains permanent damage (xp loss ect.)
There has to be mutual respect.

The Players down in the underdark are more than hospitable if you are captured down here to allow an escape attempt. They are awesome in trying to create a good story rather than misery and boredom. But remember, this is the underdark, OOCly they are a very professional bunch to play with. ICLY, they'll peel the skin from your bones and paint the walls with your guts.

In regards to descending to the Underdark, there is a counter team I have created to deter frivolous spelunking


Many of you have fought them already on surface raids.

LoudDave wrote:

I don't see much harm in a fight if its quick and neither party sustains permanent damage (xp loss ect.)
There has to be mutual respect.

The real harm of a quick fight without damage is... "Why bother?"

The new ruling on surface Drow is meant to add some weight and meaning to the conflict of coming up top when you shouldn't. No more popping up for a quickie PvP session which doesn't change anything.

I'd expect the same of anyone from the surface who just strolls on down to the Underdark for brief, meaningless PvP build-flexing: you shouldn't do it.

As it is, the only Surface-to-Underdark event I was in was a complicated rescue mission where the Zhents and Rebels actually had to work together to recover capture and enslaved people. I think some of them were down there for real-life weeks, too. It was extremely difficult and dangerous, with epic NPC Drow being spawned on us in waves, wasting a majority of the players. The entire thing was a massive struggle and took half a day of planning beforehand. It wasn't easy or casual, and it was only done once a DM could oversee it.

I'm more than fine with meaningful surface/UD crossing over with a DM checking it out, because that's how things happen. Otherwise it's just a mess of, "attack player, win/lose, respawn/find next fight, do it again tomorrow." I'd like to see more thought behind either side going to their sworn enemy territory, and less emphasis on short build-flexing battles. To me, that's utterly what the new rulings are pushing for.



EDIT: And there you go. MindFlayer's going to make sure no Surfacers muck about in the UD. Awesome.

Completed the Surfacing Policy, and am waiting for approval by Administration.

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

The Players down in the underdark are more than hospitable if you are captured down here to allow an escape attempt. They are awesome in trying to create a good story rather than misery and boredom. But remember, this is the underdark, OOCly they are a very professional bunch to play with. ICLY, they'll peel the skin from your bones and paint the walls with your guts.

In regards to descending to the Underdark, there is a counter team I have created to deter frivolous spelunking


Many of you have fought them already on surface raids.

Coming from a player who had a slave for a good while, it was an enjoyable experience, and I would've stayed had I not planned to escape from the start.

[/quote]


All slain should be provided an ooc rez


[/quote]

one thing i hate is ooc resses because players have less respect for death in the game... dieing should be a big thing... i say just fuge them and take there bodies to the back of the beetle tunnel... take the xp loss... and same should apply when going surface side or below...

Basicly dont be wreckless unless your willing to pay

The problem with having a UD DM is you're now forced to RP the UD correctly

Jokes aside I think drow leaving the surface as "raid only" is a good idea "IF" some quests are added in the UD and beastmen are placed somewhere below. I realize the faction exchange argument but it is EXTREMELY difficult to get people to part with beasthorns, even on the surface let alone the UD. Also Bregan De Arthur frequents the surface lore wise as well so maybe consider allowing them above.

Apologies if any of this was already brought up I just couldn't sift through the many pages of this post.

BD should be allowed leniancy as they are a mercenary group and need to do mercenary work etc etc

Wakefield wrote:

I'm sorry you feel small scuffles where nobody has to watch their hard earned xp go down the shoot are waste of your time.

And just because something isn't epic and grandiose doesn't mean it's going to happen everyday of the week.

I was there during the one time you were in the underdark, i remember it distinctly. It was a lot of fun.
I apologize most of the powerful drow at the time were absent, giving you little resistance, Besides Zel, what ever happened to him.....?

I think on all of my characters combined I've probably been to the surface three or four times in my year of playing here.
I wouldn't call that often.

I didn't say I expected a rez myself. I apologize if that was implied. I also apologize for trying to be nice.

An ooc rez and an ic rez are two very different things. I would expect the 24 hour rule to be in place. Also the death would merit a forum post. So its not like it "wont matter" or anything.

Additionally, while i fully support the new mechanisms in place and rulings, I am going to miss surfacers mucking about in the UD. The tunnels look so nice in a lovely shade of red.

Skullz wrote:

xp loss doesn't stop someone from being reckless. It only reduces it a little; Because you cant de-level from xp loss someone could just get down to that point and then be completely reckless.

the problem begins and ends with the players themselves and what they perceive as normal behavior for their characters.

LoudDave wrote:

Lambert wrote:

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

+4
but,

Surfacers who go down should forfeit an rp out of a fight. If they loose they can, opt out of torture/slavery, but not quick sacrifice. (and of course sacrifice isn't permanent. someone one time said it was once, i disagree ((unless the surfacer wants it to be permanent )) )

Drow who go up should forfeit their rp out of a fight. They should also be able to opt out of torture/slavery, but not a quick public execution. (which also would be non permanent ((unless the drow wanted it to be permanent )))

All slain should be provided an ooc rez

I don't see much harm in a fight if its quick and neither party sustains permanent damage (xp loss ect.)
There has to be mutual respect.

That's right. I'm lazy. So going to combine my comments on two posts since one quoted the other. Bolded parts are what I will comment on.

Lambert: I love the word alleged, but I have personally witnessed Drow coming up, roaming lower level areas, and hoping for interaction simply because they were, and I quote, "bored". The gathering of materials is one thing (and one we are trying to work on). But simply roaming a lower level area in hopes of running across someone to RP with is one of the silly things that simply should not happen but does. And it usually ends up in the higher level Drow being attacked or forcing a conflict then we get flooded with tells and PMs about being "ganked" by a lone, epic (at least from the surfacer's perspective) Drow with high level spells. It's not so much the "ganking" that this policy will help alleviate, but the utter silliness of a Drow walking around the surface trying to not be "bored". And, the new guide MindFlayer has written up is good and deals with both UD and surface players the exact same way. So the last part of your suggestion is already in there.

LoudDave: I agree, whole-heartedly with your idea of UD Drow on the surface and surface races below being seen as giving consent to PvP and opting out of their RP out. As it is now, one can go up or down, run into a group of that area's denizens, and choose to RP out or not based upon their OOC knowledge of how tough the group they run into is. It happens far more often than I like and almost always leads to tells and PM complaints about the unfairness of things. UD people travelling the surface should be scared to death of the nasty and barbaric top-siders that roam under the glowing ball of hell when they venture up. Surfacers should be scared to death of the evil demonic spider-kissing, baby-eating black elves and all their slave armies when they go below. I think MindFlayer's new guidelines will do just that. Your suggestion (which has been brought up several times before) of basically a KOS rule for races out of their native environment is another step that makes sense to me. But the new guidelines may make it a fairly moot point, so let's see how things play out with them before adding in even more rules.

I just wanted to post a quick question here because though I think I'm pretty much the only player with a character currently in this position, I figure there might be others somewhere.

My character makes his living working as an agent/messenger/merchant between the UD and the surface; he is a surfacer, but myself and others have put a lot of RP into him being "accepted" down there. Mindflayer knows the specifics.

Conversely, some UD characters are designed around the premise of surfacing; slaves, spies and merchants could all plausibly be at the surface from time to time.

When a character is a dedicated spelunker or surface-vistor (and both have plenty of lore support), how do these rules apply?

pyro wrote:

I just wanted to post a quick question here because though I think I'm pretty much the only player with a character currently in this position, I figure there might be others somewhere.

My character makes his living working as an agent/messenger/merchant between the UD and the surface; he is a surfacer, but myself and others have put a lot of RP into him being "accepted" down there. Mindflayer knows the specifics.

Conversely, some UD characters are designed around the premise of surfacing; slaves, spies and merchants could all plausibly be at the surface from time to time.

When a character is a dedicated spelunker or surface-vistor (and both have plenty of lore support), how do these rules apply?

it is up to flayer to rule but in these situations I personally feel your rp is well established, justified and ok.

But it is in his hands to make a final ruling, which will take precedence

pyro wrote:

I just wanted to post a quick question here because though I think I'm pretty much the only player with a character currently in this position, I figure there might be others somewhere.

My character makes his living working as an agent/messenger/merchant between the UD and the surface; he is a surfacer, but myself and others have put a lot of RP into him being "accepted" down there. Mindflayer knows the specifics.

Conversely, some UD characters are designed around the premise of surfacing; slaves, spies and merchants could all plausibly be at the surface from time to time.

When a character is a dedicated spelunker or surface-vistor (and both have plenty of lore support), how do these rules apply?

If your character has a viable RP reason to go to and from, then there is no issue. It needs to be said that the Underdark regardless of this will become more hostile and dangerous to all. So 5 invisi potions and a good Willpower wont always save you.

To be clear, If you have a good reason to be back and forth, then the White Spears and The Alpha's wont bother you.

As for the normal UD creatures, well.

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

As for the normal UD creatures, well.

LOL Excellent! I'm glad the Underdark has been slowly becoming the menace it's meant to be.

I apologize for my tone in this forum but I am a little bit frustrated

I am curious why I have suddenly seen two humans in camp yesterday. One apparently was a slave a very old slave or a very new I do not know. Naturally this was handled IC swiftly.


Also the second Human very skilled with Hide/Move Silently walked into camp and started trading. When asked OOC he replied that he had some standing agreement to come to camp and trade. This was someone I have never ever seen in the UD before. I was frustrated OOC and it led me to chase the character out of the UD with a good beating so he remembers not to come back. I did apologize of course for allowing OOC frustrations drive my IC actions.

So I am very confused, because many of us Drow below have contacts and agreements stretching the entire surface all the way to Free Haven but we face SEVERE OOC consequences if we step outside the UD. All of our previous RP on the surface has been severed with a red hot sword. I am also curious how a Human was able to walk throughout the entire UD with no light source and using stealth to avoid anyone. I am just seeing a double standard here. Other half-drow and even mercenary humans are allowed to continue entering and leaving the UD as they please...And it makes me sad...

I know for a fact if Nanga steps outside the UD surface players will immediatly spamm the DM channel and I will face some form of death, XP loss and harsh words from a staff member. The last thing I want to do is break a sever rule or do any action to go against staff rules. Nanga had her own networks of trade going where she was selling and trading beastmen horns to other Drow who could not access the surface as easily.

So I will sit here in camp and try to adjust again to server lore and think about all the RP I once had on the surface. I can understand the decision to not have good drow on the surface, but now it seems like cannot even RP a neutral Drow...Must all drow now be Evil and pushed to the UD where drow are supposed to be? I suppose I will keep seeing Evil shifts in my alignment as well untill one day Nanga will wakes up the crazed physco evil drow who used to chop up other people on the altar of Lolth. Who remembers those days? No Jaluk was safe from Nangas *chop chop*

*shrugs* maybe then I will take a 3rd delevel to level 1 and become an insane confused Yathrin again...I am sure the OOC drama this would create would be epic.


Maybe I just need to be patient and see what Mindflayers new guidelines are. I think i will play an alt for a while untill standards are set and the confusion is cleared.

I am ranting a little as you can tell
My apologies but it just feels good to rant sometimes


Kind Regards

Vilesinger

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t13226-surfacing-and-descent-policy#96526


I'm glad you feel better. Rant all you like, I can take it.

I'd suggest any that make contracts with surfacers to trade give them a note of proof that you have allowed such.
I know the person mi has a standing agreement with regarding trade she wrote up a note that he is to present when challenged.