Surfacing is a big deal

Vilesinger wrote:

The solution to the problem is not to Bann all Drow from the surface but focus on why the drow come to the surface and give them what they need.

This is an example of what I've posted being taken out of context. Please re-read carefully what i have posted and you will see that no where in it did the word BAN or FORBIDDEN appear.


Going to the surface and grinding for materials is the lazy way. Strike up some connections, Bregan Daerthe is perfect for this and will allow me to immerse them into their own plotline. Again, dont take it out of context, this does not give BD a free pass. All surfacing must be sent in for approval, I dont need you to write me a sonnet, just state your time and purpose. Dont expect it to be approved if you are just going to hunt beastmen. We are working on the issue of the Power essences.

erm, by meaning events for materials, you realise you can literally have insane amount of spawns acording to the event an rp..(dm)

and yes by lore drows have incredible gear, alas none of them work properly in surface, and decay quite fast. game mechanics are limit ofcourse..

i just thought the same "amount" of material spawn will skyrocket drows against already suffering arcane classes...but i also think ud needs them..so my opinion ends in again with an ud essence area with %50 or etc lowered spawn rate, when compared with surfcace versions.

Gildren wrote:

Third - this so of policy needs to go both ways. If an orc, or halfling or moon-elf or what have you comes into the UD without DM support, they should be expecting to be killed by a DM just as a UD drow will now have to expect DM death for stepping onto the surface. Traveling to the UD should be a special and extremely dangerous afair.

Surfacers coming to the UD are encounter with even more harsh and devistating results. I dont have special NPC's for them. Ask many who have ventured down there and found themselves over run by all the nasty denizens I can pull out of my sleeve.

I've crushed whole and Epic parties for being so presumptious thinking they can mosey on down for a little grind and mine. you just dont see that.

As far as UD players leaving the server, as with all things that's their decision. If one player remains after all of this, be sure that I'll be DMing my ass off for them.

I want everyone to know, I'm not mad at you. But The Underdark is my jusridiction now. I will let some things slide and many of you can attest that I'm rather fair when it comes to assisting you. I am also very liberal with Xp due to ECL and lack of setting missions. But all rewards are deserved ones.

The Power essences are a problem that need to be resolved by Role Play, not HiPS and Grinding.

I am working on missions and events that are tailored to the acquisition of these precious things, Solo events included. But my ruling will not be retracted.

While I understand something must be done, I find this rule just a tad too much.

Characters need to role play their survival instinct accordingly. Going to the surface is indeed a foolish thing to do alone.

But there are so many reasons one still might have the reason to do so, that asking for DM permission everytime seems like a pain. Also, giving special pass to surface drows isnt fair either imo. Why would it be less dangerous for surface drows than underdark drows? The reason for this rule is because being on the surface is dangerous for drows, no?

Example : Lets say my half drow slave is lvl 20 and all. By lvl 20 I ll have enough ninja levels to cast ethereal jaunt 20 times per day, and your true seeing, high spot guards will be out ran everytime. What will you do then, accept my escaping powers or deduct xp, lvls, gear?

If my jabbress orders me to do something on the surface, and tells me she will kill me if I dont obey, im kind of stuck going on the surface even if it is dangerous. Should I block myself from these rp reasons and remain below?

Asking you permission to go to the surface everytime seems like a larger work than telling each players that exagerate separatedly once and is blocking us from some rp fun if you re not logged on to autorise us to go up there are my two points.

Until essence drops of power, air and water are in the UD this will continue to be an issue, sorry, but Mustang and Buce need to be brought in on this

i think dm told that its going under revision already..

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

We are working on the issue of the Power essences.

Quote :

and yes by lore drows have incredible gear, alas none of them work properly in surface, and decay quite fast. game mechanics are limit ofcourse..

The gimmick of sunlight decay on drow items died with 2nd edition. Even then, the use of Darkoil made drow items immune to the effect if regularly applied.

From Drow of the Underdark:

Quote :

For generations, the drow utilized a process that caused their magic items to disintegrate when exposed to sunlight, in the hope of making them less attractive to potential thieves and invaders. This practice has all but died out in modern times, partially because it didn't function as a deterrent, and also because many drow found their campaigns against the surface races hampered by the time limits such items placed on their activities.

3.5 has rightfully thrown out that dumb bit of fluff.

ah, cool i didnt know that, thanks for clearing up

Define go to the surface? I like to hang out in free haven on occasion.

no Drow in FH now either I think. Maybe ask a DM to walk us there? *shrugs*

I can appreciate what the staff are trying to accomplish with this.... but I would like to point out in regards to requiring DM approval for jaunts to the surface for underdark characters... and please clarify for me if you mean DROW or UD ... since will this rule apply to any race that starts in the UD or are you specfically calling out DROW with this rule.

Now back to the main point and that is if UD players now require DM approval has the DM staff accepted the amounts of requests this will be put on them and what is the expectation of the DM team to respond on a decline or approval understanding that your decision may effect current and future RP for some of this.

I can understand how much the DM Team can deal with and do you feel that this is already adding to a burden of work on a team that has lots to deal with now.

Shadow

very valid points shadow (along with the problem of essences)

DarthOrgana wrote:

Define go to the surface? I like to hang out in free haven on occasion.

Freehaven is surface.

I also understand the essence issue....

What I think is if the surface has access to some types and the UD has access to other types this will stimulate more of a trade/RP interaction since one area will not have access to all types.

My feeling then it would be fair and accomplish what some are suggesting by using Mercenaries/Merchant Clans to accomplish that.

I agree in principle that UD drow should be in the Underdark. I agree with the ruling here.

The only thing I would bring up though is a general point.

If drow are coming to the surface when they shouldn't, surely it reflects that something is "missing" from the UD.

Attention. Events. Materials. Etc...

I see drow going to the surface because things are lacking in the UD.

We can't go to freehaven? Back in the day we had to suffer through a lot of ic stuff (mostly people attacking darg (sometimes in the middle of the street)/threatening to go fetch myth drannor army and have them charge through the desert to attack, like, 3 drow living in freehaven) just to be able to live there and now you're just throwing that all out the window?

Freehaven, a city that has explicitly allowed drow for the longest time, is now off limits for no readily apparent reason?

It seems like you want the surface and underdark to be completely isolated from one another. That leaves drow with pretty much nothing to do but murder each other, which is completely pointless since nobody ever dies.

I don't see a strong RP reason for drow to be in Freehaven on a frequent basis.

Us Jaelre had to go there because there was nowhere else to go. That, and the fact our Stronghold was submitted months ago but still isn't implemented.

Shadowwolf wrote:

... and please clarify for me if you mean DROW or UD ... since will this rule apply to any race that starts in the UD or are you specfically calling out DROW with this rule.

Drow, all other would fall under the Monster races that are dealt with just like other surface monsters as playable characters.

I would not have a problem with breaking it up so that the underdark has certain types of reagents, different essences, than the surface. The key there would be to make these different types ultimately EQUAL in use. If you just give the surface power essences(I think we can agree they are the most useful) and then give the UD obscure ones that nobody cares about, you've solved nothing.

I've participated in events where drow have tried to trade, or cooperate, with surfacers and this is exactly the way it played out. Surface characters ask for everything and have no reason to make any concessions whatsoever, so the drow say "screw that" and abandon the whole idea. If you want us to trade, you've got to give BOTH parties imperatives to do so. It's the same principle as an unregulated monopoly in real-world business: if one company has all access to a product/service, then they have free reign to jack up the price of that product/service to astronomical heights.

I already have to farm and farm and farm to get 120k for a +3 enchantment, I'm not gonna farm and farm just to pay some jerk from the surface charging ridiculous prices for crap they can get for free. It's a video game, I play video games to have fun. Farming isn't fun.

I'm all for the ruling, since it seems the real issues with it will (mostly) be addressed. Thanks for your work, MindFlayer, you try so hard for us

I agree with Shadowolf that it would be more interesting if the essences were split between the UD and the surface, like so

UD: Power, Fire and Earth.

Surface: Power, air, and water.

Which would encourage real trading to go on between the two places where both have something the other needs, instead of one holding all the cards.

Flayer are you refering to Mouses post - Monster races

It does not go into much detail as in they require DM approval to be on the surface so in regards to this request the Drow have been singled out as the only Race that requires DM approval to be on the surface.

So saying that what can we expect as a turn around on requests.... will you have dedicated time just to spend dealing with this which would then take away from your time to deal with other RP story lines in the UD if you are spending time dealing with these trips... or will you have the support of other DM's to help the Drow proceed with RP that this rule may now impact.

I am sorry but I am not convinced that this ruling is in the best interest of the UD players.

Shadow

Completely agree with Jeremor's last post. Completely.

and;

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

Jeremor wrote:

I cannot think of a single viable argument against giving the underdark quests. It simply doesn't exist, besides "I play surface character, and dislike fairness!". The only limit is the priority to the builders/scripters to get it done.

If I have to, I'll start learning how to script these things myself. I will be vigilant in pushing to get this done. But from my knowledge I'm not sure if we even have incomplete scenarios that need to be finished up, so It may all be starting from scratch. I'm willing to learn this stuff to bring it to the Underdark, because I agree the lack of Quests there is sorely lacking.

And I'm serious, I've already started requesting information and material to learn to script and build. It's ON

Shadowwolf wrote:

Flayer are you refering to Mouses post - Monster races

It does not go into much detail as in they require DM approval to be on the surface so in regards to this request the Drow have been singled out as the only Race that requires DM approval to be on the surface.

So saying that what can we expect as a turn around on requests.... will you have dedicated time just to spend dealing with this which would then take away from your time to deal with other RP story lines in the UD if you are spending time dealing with these trips... or will you have the support of other DM's to help the Drow proceed with RP that this rule may now impact.

I am sorry but I am not convinced that this ruling is in the best interest of the UD players.

Shadow

Again, things are being taken as absolute. I never said, Drow may never ever ever go to the surface. The fact is, that you can, and probably will despite this ruling. I'm letting everyone know about cause and effect. I'm currently putting together a clear and understandable guideline to surfacing via DM approval. It's not going to be as intensive on us as you think (at first sure, but all new ideas have bugs). With that said, if you are seen on the surface as a Drow and you are not commissioned by your faction. Understand that there will be consequences (Alpha Bastards), as for the De-leveling, that's an action taken if you repeatedly and blatantly ignore the system that will be in place.

I will keep posting my ideas about the changes to the UD as they come to me, but I need to get Mustang's input and authority to make the changes that would balance the surface and the UD.

I never assumed you meant Drow could never go to the surface but we are now required to seek DM Approval to be on the surface unless we want really bad things to happen to us if we are doing so solo.

As a Solo Drow previously we had to worry about every PC on the surface that could potentially stop us from doing what we needed now we have that as well as these Alpha deterants that yes may be killable but unlikely solo.

So to get approval I would send the DM's a PM with my request.

A DM would then post it in the DM channel and the others would input in regards to this - Unless you have sole approval for such requests and do not require input from the others... these requests lets say for now will sit 24 hours in the DM channel and then depending on the verdict will be approved or declined.

Declined - Player recieves an email saying better luck next time but at this time due to xyz you are not being approved to go on the surface.

Approved - Player recieves an email saying congrats you are allowed to enter the surface. Set expectations as to when that player should be back in the UD since they are not a permanent fixture on the surface. Ensure all other DM's are aware of the approval and timeline as to when they can expect that player on the surface since it would not be good to go through all this only to have a DM on the surface think a Drow is there under this new ruling *DM Greenboy smites the Drow on the surface*

Player now works with DM and possible other players for his journey say everything works he gets that all worked out in 24-48 hours that is if DM/Players can all get on during the same time.

We are tentatively speaking about 3 days just to go to the surface to meet someone to develop the RP story...

Perhaps my assumptions are wrong but this is why I think the rule needs to be refined since what I think is being suggested is not just a deterant to be on the surface but for RP as well.

Shadow

Most of the times I go to the surface I havnt planned the trip in advance, really my once a month trips to strike fear into surfacers I don't plan. Its usually more of an on the minute decision 'lets go cause some chaos' It kind of just seems thats going to end all of that with requiring to submit a request to go raiding at which point by that time I will have other things I have to sort out and just won't bother.

i think it's really to complicate, too many rules... Rarie will continue to go on the surface and die if the god dm want.