Surfacing is a big deal

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

Ticladesign wrote:

If you want everyone to be so heavily factioned, then it's time to reinstate the Eilistraean faction, beside the Jaerle one, as that is what the lore tells us, right? I'm volenteering.

No. This issue has been addressed and will remain within its current status.

I miss the moon-dancers...*Misty eyes*

Pffft, no one believes you would miss them at all...

Drow raids on the surface are highly objective-oriented. Dark elves won't usually entrench themselves in long, drawn-out warfare. If you want drow surface raids to be more rp-oriented, then we need some sort of objective. We can't raid Shadowdale nor Myth Drannor can we? And personally every time I've raided the Royal Oak I've always met two or three epic-level surfacer characters there capable of wiping out my entire warband using only their left thumb, giving rise to the notion that the Royal Oak is cursed! Maybe there could be quaint little villages of NPC elves or gnomes or dwarves here and there where we evil folks can ply our murdrous ways? And by the way these could exist in the underdark as well: The forest of mushrooms could be expanded to include a small svirfneblin village, the duergar could have a small settlement too, ect.

Also, just to clarify, does "sent in for approval" mean a PM on the forum automatically? Or could it possibly be in the form of a tell when you're online? "Hey Mindflayer, me and a bunch just happen to be online right now and we feel like a surface raid, can we?". A PM with specified date and time requires a lot more forethought and planning, sometimes it's fun to just spontaneously gather up a bunch of bored players and go spread fear and terror. I've seen these sorts of raids develop into very memorable events even if they were spontaneous.

Another point is Schindlrynn. This is a city of drow that's supposed to be mainly a commerce city, yet hardly anyone goes there for any significant length of time. The reasons for that are simple:

One: There isn't much you can buy in Schindlrynn that you can't already buy in the refugee camp. And by the way: you can buy boots and cloaks of elvenkind on the surface, but not in the underdark, WHYY???? My personal opinion on this is: reduce the merchant selection of the refugee camp, and expand Schindlrynn's. It's a refugee camp, it's supposed to be poorly provisioned. Put the auctioneer in Schindy instead. Also, could Schindlrynn please have just a little more light? It's hard to see there even with darkvision.

Two: Schindlrynn, as it is now, is relatively inaccessible especially to the surface. If you want more commercial trade between the surface and the underdark, it seems to me that Schindy is ideal for that, being a relatively cosmopolitan settlement. But as it is now, if a surfacer wants to reach it they have to travel past the illythiri outpost. Trade cities tend to be built on crossroads with heavy traffic. Perhaps a portal between Schindlrynn and some new caves that connect to Free Haven might open up commerce a bit, and give people more reasons to go there.

Quote :

Just look at the Map of the Underdark in the Underdark book, the nearest Drow city to Shadowdale is Maerimydra. As best as I can tell. And that is in the Middledark... 3 to 10 miles under the surface of Faerun! That is a LONG way to travel, with a lot of dangers to face.

Honestly I think the trip to the surface as it is now is too short. Add 5 or 10 more large, annoying maps to traverse to even just get to the surface and see how the surface trips will drop as the convenience factor is reduced. We need to be deeper down. But the power essence issue will still have people going up there even with additional maps. That has to be dealt with one way or the other.

Which brings me to my last point: If the plan is to add more underdark maps, lets make em worth it. Personally the maps I like most are the forest of mushrooms and the lava caves, because they're visibly beautiful to look at and relatively big and expansive. But our caves need much much more water! I realize this is a fantasy game, but in reality caves are most often formed through eons of water erosion and tectonic shifts. I'd love to see a couple more flooded caverns, perhaps a kuo toa temple to go raid, ect. If the builders want to add some real flair to their underdark, then lets have some maps that are visually appealing: volcanic caves, mushroom caves, HUGE caves full of stalactites and stalagmites, crevaces and canyons. Years ago I played on Baldur's Gate's server, and the first time I set eyes on Sshamath from that winding spire my jaw dropped just gazing at the view.

does this mean people will actually roll toons that arnt yath just so they have more chance of getting out to surface? if so then this is a good thing....

a population of 99% yath is abit lore incorrect

Skullz wrote:

does this mean people will actually roll toons that arnt yath just so they have more chance of getting out to surface? if so then this is a good thing....

a population of 99% yath is abit lore incorrect

+1

I agree. To many priest running around it makes it is very difficult for other characters to actually get rp in, but back to the point of this thread.

I rather like the concept here even though this hits my toon rather hard. I think it would be a good idea to make it very difficult to get to the surface and vice versa. However, lets not get so caught up in being "lore" based that we destroy the reasons people play in this server as a UD drow. To much to the left or right and we ruin the game for a lot of people. There are still very valid reasons for drow to go above because of previous RP.

Lets not just slam shut the gates and ignore all the hard work that many, many characters have done before.

Werebeagle9 -

Ah if I only had a dime for every time someone suggested build an entirely new city/town/etc as a solution to whatever issue - LOL I hear what you're saying, I understand. and in several ways I agree (boots and cloak you mentioned are in the next update). but really if you could just open the toolset and spend two hours trying to fix a door connection to get it to work right, ya just might not jump to the "build a new thingy" as the fast easy fix LOL

Yes the issues are being heard, yes there is someone attempting to address them, but no, it can't happen as quickly as anyone would like. There was an update for the UD that was to go in three weeks ago, but that got derailed by a 13-year-old hacking the server forcing attention to an update to go elsewhere. In this update was a UD quest for Lolth-ite drow that took about a month to create.

So all and all my friend, instead of complain, open the toolset and help.

I really like the idea of having small npc camps and villages for people to raid. Nothing big as to draw away from the main towns but it could really provide some nice RP opportunities for drow, zhents and defenders alike. Its a bit off topic so I think I'll set up a thread about it.

But overall I think the decision is sound since drow rarely go out alone in the underdark let alone the surface.

Gildren wrote:

So all and all my friend, instead of complain, open the toolset and help.

Sorry if my suggestions sounded like complaints, they weren't meant to. I know working the toolset is difficult, especially for folks like me who don't have much level-design or programming knowledge. I managed to be able to use it create custom-designed armours, but when I tried making maps, I had difficulty with it. That said I'll open it up and give it another try as you suggest.

Mindflayer, actually, that is a good point. do we simply shoot the available dm a tell? or do the drow players need to contact you on forums?

The method will come out today on how to go about surfacing without Alpha Bastards interference.


It's not as complicated as it sounds, once I put it out I think a lot of folks will say . . .OHHH!


But for now, just a tell is fine.

I got nothing but luv for ya Werebeagle9 - I'm just trying to wrench your arm in to helping me. The learning curve is very steep, but if you can make it up the first hill, the next one is not nearly as painful (sans scripting - which I really only do in a very very minor way).

Werebeagle9 wrote:

Gildren wrote:

So all and all my friend, instead of complain, open the toolset and help.

Sorry if my suggestions sounded like complaints, they weren't meant to. I know working the toolset is difficult, especially for folks like me who don't have much level-design or programming knowledge. I managed to be able to use it create custom-designed armours, but when I tried making maps, I had difficulty with it. That said I'll open it up and give it another try as you suggest.

If you or anyone else needs a hand building/fixing stuff Gildren, I will be happy to help. My skills are a tad above meager at best, but like you said, one does get better. Let me know.

Got all the guidelines down and a rough draft made out regarding the policy of surfacing and descending. It may be late tonight or tomorrow before the final draft comes out, there's a lot of clarifications I want to cover so I don't have to ask the same questions over and over. Also I'm combing this thread for things to be aware of. Be patient and send the DM's a Tell if you intend on surfacing. Just Please don't say its to grind solo. You need a commission by a superior or a really good reason to be up there.

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

Lambert wrote:

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

+1

Lambert wrote:

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

+2

Lambert wrote:

If your going to make all drow players request permission to go to the surface because of alleged griefing and meta gaming of drow characters, then the same approach should be used for surfacers entering the mines and the UD caves.

I am pretty sure that UD role players are just as good or bad as surface role players.

+3

Deal.

Gildren wrote:

Werebeagle9 -

Ah if I only had a dime for every time someone suggested build an entirely new city/town/etc as a solution to whatever issue - LOL I hear what you're saying, I understand. and in several ways I agree (boots and cloak you mentioned are in the next update). but really if you could just open the toolset and spend two hours trying to fix a door connection to get it to work right, ya just might not jump to the "build a new thingy" as the fast easy fix LOL

Yes the issues are being heard, yes there is someone attempting to address them, but no, it can't happen as quickly as anyone would like. There was an update for the UD that was to go in three weeks ago, but that got derailed by a 13-year-old hacking the server forcing attention to an update to go elsewhere. In this update was a UD quest for Lolth-ite drow that took about a month to create.

So all and all my friend, instead of complain, open the toolset and help.

Due to your comment in this post... I got out my books/Printed up PDF's and sat down to try to learn the Toolset.
Mind you I just started, so it will be a while before my skills are worth more then a Rothe's leftovers.

Wakefield wrote:

Deal.

I would also suggest that captured surfacers from raids, especially ones who venture into the UD, should never be allowed to leave the UD unless they have the permission of staff and the player faction that captured them, if we are going to keep this UD concept lore based and respectable.

After all, that is why people avoid the UD generally, to avoid the enslavement issue. I find too many captured players or Rothe just play on the surface then switch to the UD when they are bored, and often bring up the secrets and laundry of the UD to the surface. It happens so regularly there might as well be a newspaper on the surface called the Drow Times. Surfacerers seem to know more about what is happening in the UD then I did in the past at times.

I mean if we are going to avoid all that meta gaming and griefing and all.

Don't wander too close to the mines Wakefield, your just the kind of fella I would love to sacrifice to Lolth's altar, if that was my kind of thing.

Lambert wrote:

I would also suggest that captured surfacers from raids, especially ones who venture into the UD, should never be allowed to leave the UD unless they have the permission of staff and the player faction that captured them, if we are going to keep this UD concept lore based and respectable.

That sounds like a horrible mess of an idea that would only result in characters getting locked away for long periods of time in situations only slightly better than they'd face if jailed by the Zhentarim or Akh'Velahr.

Friends formulate a rescue attempt.... they execute it (likely with the go-ahead from a DM).... only to have the player faction refuse to let the captive go? No way.

The captive works on their own escape plan.... has some awesome RP with the player faction... escapes back to the surface ... only to be kicked back into the UD by a DM? Also no way.

Captives should be given the opportunity to RP their way out, if they wish to escape (or be rescued, if they want that) without having other people having a full-on veto on their own gameplay. Yes, it does kind of suck for the drow when their captive escapes, but to be blunt, the amount of sucky gameplay that the captive would face outweighs the drow players' momentary "well that's too bad" reaction. If the RP goes badly, a character can become pretty much unplayable. People may say that the "obvious answer" is to OOCly decline to be captured and work out some other outcome, but hostilities don't always work out so cleanly.

If any of my characters got captured by drow and, after giving it my absolute best shot RPing the situation I decide its completely unplayable, you can darn well bet that at the next server reset I'm spawning on the surface, crawling nearly-dead to the nearest road to RP a close escape, and PMing someone about why I'm never coming back to the UD.

I'm very much against a single person being in near complete control of another player's gameplay with a character when a player's actions don't harm anyone else in ways that are against server rules, or ways that are just blatantly stupid and trollish.

/rant off

tl;dr version: No. Never say never, and don't place the fate of a character entirely in the hands of a person other than that character's player... and the original idea of this thread sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

Lambert wrote:

I would also suggest that captured surfacers from raids, especially ones who venture into the UD, should never be allowed to leave the UD unless they have the permission of staff and the player faction that captured them.

I think this is a fantastic idea, so long as the player OOCly consents to it, and knows full well the consequences. No one should be dragged down to the UD interminably without a clear and unambiguous explanation of how that would affect their RP, and their subsequent consent to it.

Lambert wrote:

I would also suggest that captured surfacers from raids, especially ones who venture into the UD, should never be allowed to leave the UD unless they have the permission of staff and the player faction that captured them, if we are going to keep this UD concept lore based and respectable.

I gotta disagree with this, a player should always be allowed to jump ship if they find it unplayable, RP be damned. Like Jakunen said, there should always be some method of escape.

That said yes, I do agree with you about the actual slave characters on the surface. Not only is this pretty nonsensical irresponsibility of the drow for letting them wander so far, it doesn't make any real sense why slaves would ever be willing to return. Yes, stockholme syndrome exists. But I don't think that every slave would suffer from it.

Also I don't think the entrance of the mines should be off limits to surfacers just by virtue of leading into the underdark. Yeah, anything past the mines themselves, sure, fair game I guess, they knew what they were getting into. But the mines are only a few steps away from daylight, there's dozens of tunnels beyond the mine itself to take before you even get into the actual UD. The old skull cavern in comparison is a single locked door away from the heart of the underdark, and nobody ever seems to complain about surfacers being in there.