Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

LoudDave wrote:

Wow.
You just assume we don't communicate ooc, agree on anything, or have any grasp on what the DM's are here for.
This is outrageous.
Are you going to tell me how many sides a d20 has next?

Wakefield wrote:

Yes, I do not play a Drow

This is why your original suggestion to "frame someone as a heretic" was taken with such resoundingly bad responses. This business of tossing about the label heretic in the past has led to seriously bad situations. Your "suggestion" is a heavy and far step backwards. If you played a Drow you would know this, and you would not have suggested it.
So when your suggestion was denied it would have been appropriate for you to read up on lore or play a drow for at least 1 day, and then pose another suggestion, rather then get into a forum debate about how we don't have the basic human skills of communication.

Wakefield wrote:

Yes, I do not play a Drow

I recommended acting like adults and getting along. Is that possible? The tone here is getting really out of line.


And, again, what is your solution? You've played a Drow, you're the UD senior, you've got all the lore. I want to know how you would see the problem fixed. Don't just constantly tell everyone else it's impossible and they're wrong.

So, once more, what is your solution to the problem?

Shadowwolf wrote:

I am in the same boat as every other male in the UD. Just because I have Yath in my title really means nothing.

No. No it doesn't mean nothing.
It means a lot when the UD players collectively feel yath'sarglithilin is as politically high (give or take) as a yath'abben.
The yath don't see you as a favorite slave, you waaaaaaaaaay more important than that. Thats like saying Yath'abbens are the favorite slave of the Yath'tellar. Your statement single single-handedly eliminates any power or rank from everyone who is not yath. and flattens them all to roth.

You disagreed heavily when i mention that the yath'sarglithilin is a temple gaurd most often. how can he be trusted to carry out anything more than the most mundane of tasks if he is supposed to be viewed as a roth?

THIS IS A REALLY LONG POST, MAKE YOURSELF SOMETHING TO DRINK IF YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO READ IT. I SUGGEST A NICE SWEET TEA, WITH A BIG HUNK OF LEMON IN IT. BUT THEN AGAIN, I SUPPOSE A NICE LITTLE GLASS OF FINE WHISKEY IS GOOD TOO, FOR THOSE OVER DRINKING AGE AND WITHOUT A HISTORY OF ALCOHOLISM. PERHAPS A RUM AND COKE? I DON'T KNOW, I WILL LEAVE THIS TO YOUR DISCRETION KIND READER. END MESSAGE BEEP BOOP

Alright, let me try to clarify exactly what I think is wrong and what I think the root of the problem is. I feel like I'm repeating myself because I've posted in threads about this before, so it is difficult to remember to re-summarize my thoughts every so often.


We've taken a very strict and unyielding reading of the Lore where it pertains to the power of Yath. I don't mean right this very moment, not just in this thread, but over the recent history of the underdark setting. We've really had it pounded into everybody's head that the Yath are powerful, the Yath are infallible, and the Yath are mostly invincible unless you work for months to unseat them... and even then, you'll need the direct help of several Yath to have a shot of doing that.

I don't agree. I think it doesn't make sense that we hold Drow up to be the embodiment of Chaos(how often do you hear Yath'abban scream about Lolth's Chaos? I do constantly), but then we say "Nope, can't do that, it's against lore. NOOOPPEEE Yath have to have all the power, it's lore, you can't ignore that. You should go play on the surface if you didn't want Lolthite roleplay, jeez".

The lore we're reading is for cities, and it's mostly a general guideline than a concrete definition that must be obeyed at all times. Don't agree? Let's look around at some of the influential Drow cities of the underdark...

Sshamath: A city controlled by mages. The Temple has next to no power in anything. Not a lolthite setting, you'd say, though.

Sscindylryn: A trade city with a weak military, and a weak temple that is quickly losing ground to the Kiaranshalee cult.

Chaulssin: A city ruled by Vhaeraunites, after they attacked during the Silence of the Spider Queen.

Eryndlyn: A city at war, split into three parts with Vhaeraunites, followers of Ghaunduar, and a decimated church of Lolth.

Ched Nasad: The Clergy did hold absolute power here, true, but wizards and merchants were the ones that actually made the city work... before it became a firebombed crater, anyway. It was a city of trade, and the Yath knew not to interfere when it came to what made them money.

And lastly, of course, Menzoberranzan: A city that has always been ruled by a council of noble houses. The Church has a lot of power, certainly, but it's all directed at political intrigue of House vs House conflict. I believe this is what most of us think of when we think "drow city".


My listing off these cities isn't to say "look, let's ignore all lore because of a couple of cities don't have an all-powerful temple". It's to show that you CAN stray from it. We are playing a race of chaotic evil dark elves that live underground. Our main hobby is killing, coupled with grabbing power. It is the way Lolth wants it. Our setting isn't even a city, it's a refugee camp that is supposed to be in a state of war... but often it seems like the Yath is more interested in just solidifying their iron grip, claiming Rothe and dictating who has authority over what, than actually trying to figure out how to retake a city. My character, a House Weaponmaster, has tried to help but I run into a brick wall any time I really try to take the reins and be a military leader. The main opponent is that everyone has been brainwashed to only listen to Yath, to defer to them on every shred of power or authority on any public issue. Nobody follows a House Master unless there's absolutely no Yath around, and most of the time they barely listen when they do follow.

It's my opinion that we shouldn't be having debates on how many divine caster levels you need to become a Yath'tallar. We should be talking about what we want our Underdark to be. Do we want it to be a strict literal reading of all the parts of lore that say "Temple is superior to everyone" or do we want to relax and realize that our refugee camp is maybe not a typical Drow setting. If we decide that it's a Yath paradise, where Yath are the queens and we're a tiny step above slaves, that's fine... but I probably won't keep playing my non-yath character. I don't think many others will either.


While, yes, it's hyperbole to say that Chakos has never influenced a Yath(because yes, he has, and most probably never even know about it), I think it's also incorrect to say it's real authority... it's artificial. We latch on to a Yathrin or Yath'tallar and we try to convince her to do this or that. In reality, it feels more like the only times she agrees with us is when we're just agreeing with the thing she was going to do in the first place. When she disagrees, it's because we were actually being independent in thought. Is that how it always is without fail? No, we're not talking in absolutes here. But that is how it feels a majority of the time.

When an event pops up, it's Yath that take the reins and there's only a few select times Non-yath characters can truly influence it's course on their own. The DM usually has to go out of his way to involve the rest of us that deeply.


It's my personal opinion that it makes total sense for our Drow to not hold the Temple in the super high regard we're supposed to right now. Most of these refugees have just watched the Yath fail to defend their city against heretics and monsters, why are they going to blindly trust in them anymore? I feel it makes perfect sense for us to take this into account, and have the Yath's grip be more tenuous. Have a rebellion fomenting under the frankly sputtering rule of the Yath(this is not an insult on yath players directly, but it is the reality of how Non-yath see it). Then you force the Yath characters to be careful just who they discipline, be careful just how they treat all those non-yath that they are depending on to retake Maerimydra for them. It is my opinion that this would lead to more intelligent roleplay on both sides, giving both sides a certain power(but not absolute). If a Yath goes nuts on a powertrip, she just might spark an overthrow. The other Yath would have it be in their best interests to keep their own number in check.

You might tell me "Why aren't you trying to start this rebellion yourself?" The answer is that anything this setting-altering has to have NPC support and DM support. To try and do this without either is asking to be executed and exiled. We've still got it instilled in everyone that if your character goes up against a Yath, he will lose. Nobody is going to commit their character to a rebellion unless we oocly relax this Yath Domination stuff.

Quote :

It means a lot when the UD players collectively feel yath'sarglithilin is as politically high (give or take) as a yath'abben.

And yet we have all agreed and it is now the case with Mindflayers posting:

Quote :

Yath'abban

Spell Level (Any Divine, Must be able to Turn Undead)

Duties
1. Student and initiate into the Church of Lloth
2. Learn the Tenants and Domains of her Matron Deity
3. Exercise her abilities upon anything that threatens herself or the Church.
4. Submit to her superiors if it does not contradict the Tenants or Domains of Lloth, or the Church
5. Prepare for her trials and final exam to become Yathrin

Authority
Non Drow

I have already started Edrik playing more that way.. I leave the patrols and such to the Quellars and unless specifically tasked by the Yath to do something sit back and wait to see what happens. Do I have my own plans Hell ya I am still a Drow and even some of my plans are just to spoil the plans of others in the power struggle then I find that just as fun.

Yath'abban have no authority and trust me I enjoy Yath'sargtlin because in our world it allows me the freedom to move around but I am in the same boat as the rest except perhaps the RP allows the Yath to see me with a little more favor.. but I have had my fair share of Yath drama as well. Yath'sargtlin may be highest any Male can come in a Yath dominated power base.. and again I may have influence but in the end I am still a Male and am to bow and scrape pretty much to every Yath as well as provide proper respect to any female. Yes I have lashed out at some females and have caused some strife but in the end I justify it by easly saying those females that have been on that side of Edrik have not been Yath or his power base. I have also lived with the consequences those actions have brought around as well. In closing I have to still try and gain favor as any other by making myself useful to the Yath.

Jeremor it is not a strict and unyeilding reading of the Lore it is the Lore the Server in which they decided that their UD would be a Yath based power entity. I feel if the Players want it changed great... then work with the Staff and change it if that is the direction everyone wishes... Again you are correct about other cities... but again you are not taking into account that a decesion made a long time ago about THIS camp/city dictated the power base. Can it change yes... will it change... I dont have the answers frankly that is what Mindflayer will need to decide with the rest of the DM team. Your discussion is no different than that I have seen the posts about Shadowdale and Myth drannor and their war... it is stangnat no change nothing ever seems to change no matter how much RP is done... well you are in the same situation but in your case it is a division of the power base with in the UD and again and the ability for us to change those things around us... it WILL require the Staff to make some decisions but until they do it is OUR lore as in Daleland Beyond that has made our corner of the UD a Yath based power house and unless the DM team agrees upon the direction of the RP in the UD you may very well have to decide if it is no longer worth you time here.

Let me close by saying... of the many many pages we have all posted we have not heard from any of the Staff... if they are hoping we will come to some concessions in regards to how this will play out then I think we will never accomplish what we all want and that is some direction. We are all working towards the same goal but we do not have the actual power to decide and frankly I would like to hear from staff since I feel we are going around in circles now.

Shadow

@Jeremore, +1, I have more to add from a diffeent angle, but I completely agree and dont want to detract from your message.

@Wakefield, I dont appreciate being called childish, i will ignore your rudeness and answer answer your question.

___
You have to look at were we play logistically. 90% of anything that happens, goes down in the refugee camp.
The reason the yath have this "invincibility" is because for them the camp is pretty much "home free" its their turf as fighting in camp is off limits.
Its off limits for two reasons;
1) oocly if you fight or cast spells or whatnot it aggravates the guards.
2) supposedly The npc ilharess is a yath Lapdog and will blow your brains out for touching any member of the yath in her field of veiw.

Solutions:
1) You cant fix this in the camp. The area is too small to have both guards and covert fights/assassinations. So we must retake the city. We must also hope the city will contain many areas, and many poorly watched areas were drow can disappear away from the eyes of guards. There are like 3 alternatives to this plan, 1 of the 3 is impossible. Alternative I)Make a place besides camp popular, that way there will be more tunnel activity and confusion about who is where ect. This wont work because we simply need more players.
II)reduce the number of campsite guards. This wont really work, but what are we lawful? let not add anymore guards down here please.
III) Change the IC opinions of those NPC Guards. Write out a guideline as to what their reactions to various scenarios are.

2)
I)Move the NPC ilharess to maybe in a building. im not sure if she would literally "watch over camp" 24/7.
II)Change the NPC's opinions.
III)Retake the city, put the NPC Ilharess in some building, or at least have places she cant see.

If one of these numerous solutions were implemented then it would eliminate the "home free" yath zone. This may not be a perfect solution but it will help. More work may need to be done.
My suggestions don't touch upon the mindset topics Jeremor touched on, and for that reason i would like anyone continuing this thread to read it on page 16.
Thank you.

Hang on I have a few more points,

@Edrick, I like what you wrote a bit

@my last post, by fighting i mean more like assassinations. drow don't often have large throw downs, they're not orcs. But still there's nowhere in the place were most people spend most of their time on average to fulfill this need.

I mean ya if you really wanted someone gone you'd have to wait until they were outside camp, and away from the camp guards. I guess you could lure them out by making up some story about how their needed outside camp somewhere.
But again the killing isnt the main point, its how do you smear politically without pullin the heretic card.

Depends, one thing you could do would be to try to defect all of a persons underlings. It gets sketchy, there's a lot of things that could happen.

House Masters should never take any flack from a Yath'abban regardless of Gender.

If this happens and the House Master slaps a Yath'abban down like Rick James, then they cannot be declared a Heretic. Bad blood? sure. But heretic? Only The Ulath'Tallar and/or a 2/3rds vote by Yath'Tallars can do so.

There is a difference between even Yath'abban. Senior Yath'abbanen that are ripened and ready to take the final trial should be considered with some respect but as Vader said to Luke, "You are not a Jedi yet. . ."

And even Yathrin that are attacked in the privacy of the tunnels cannot declare Heresy upon another unless there is viable evidence (either artificially manufactured, or real) and a judgement is made after the Yath'Tallar have conversed and judged. Even still the Ulath'Tallar will be able to nullify the charge if inspired by Lolth to do so.


So the whole Heresy thing being a trump card is going the way of the Dodo.

Yath throwing their weight around at every opportunity is just plain dumb. Drow are cunning and conniving. They are thoughtful of the webbing they wish to weave, why severe a potential string by behaving in such a domineering fashion? Who is going to want to be around your character if all she does is smash on Non Yath?

In the game of chess, going down a pawn can have serious consequences, going down a piece usually means the game is over.


This is a non perma server, and we're in a murderous setting. This is why it is harder to play Drow than any other character. My suggestion is, while its within everyone's right to be suspicious and opposed to each other, dont take it so far as to lose perspective on your goals as a whole.

Want to kill something? Or perma something? I have a long list of NPC's that are available (some have been killed already)

To declare heresy or to perma-kill someone is a decision that should be granted by that controller first. And most do not want the last year of hard work and brilliant creativity they have procured ending so suddenly.

I do believe that everyone should have a terminal idea for their character upon creation. Whether they want to do that at Level 3 or 29 is entirely up to them.

Lamenting about problems that spring from this will be a never ending ordeal unless you decide otherwise. It's not going to change because of rule augmentation, but by our own acceptance to what it is.

We all know the restrictions that keep our setting from being 100% lore driven, so we know that we will never be able to simulate Drow society perfectly (Even if we had Maerimydra).

Lets just make the best we can with what we've got and try to tweak things that create a balance. Just remember, it's never going to be completely fair to everyone, because opinions are always subjective.

Mindflayer can I assume then by your post that there is no thought then to remove the current Power of Camp from a Yath based power system to something else?

What you are suggesting is that we drive down restrictions in regards to how those power should be over others as well as perhaps guidelines in regards to using that power as well. But that the over all ruling powers in camp will remain with the Yath.

So the ruling previously of attacking a member of the Church will not be an automatic branding of heresy but will be handled as a case by case basis as to if it is deemed Heretical or not. No single Yath member can declare another PC a Heretic with out the consent of the ruling Yath (Ulath'tallar/DM).

Do you feel with that type of ruling it is the intent to allow some of this more Murderous RP we Drow do to be able to be played out more by limiting the consequences?

I agree that in the UD we see more heavy handed approach and hence why alot of the Non Yath a majority of which are Male as well (since we all know the females are given better treatment than us ... since even with Rothe around ... the females enjoy ordering Jaluks around to do their bidding... as I say in game ... the little spiders like to show their fangs just so we all understand our place in the world) are asking for change.

Shadow

@Mindflayer

Question on Herecy and heretics:

What counts as herecy (minor, serious & unforgiveale) and what are the procedures?

What are the procedures for handling heretics? (suspected, confirmed & none lolth divine spellcasters)

Quote :

And even Yathrin that are attacked in the privacy of the tunnels cannot declare Heresy upon another unless there is viable evidence (either artificially manufactured, or real) and a judgement is made after the Yath'Tallar have conversed and judged. Even still the Ulath'Tallar will be able to nullify the charge if inspired by Lolth to do so.


So the whole Heresy thing being a trump card is going the way of the Dodo.

Talasprina has said it before many times: The word heresy must not be bandied about like candy, else the word will lose its importance. Heresy is an extremely serious charge, and should be weighed very carefully. Talasprina herself has never yet brought forth an actual heresy charge herself. Because I agree that it must not be the "you did something I didn't like so I'm declaring you a heretic" out.

Quote :

they cannot be declared a Heretic. Bad blood? sure. But heretic? Only The Ulath'Tallar and/or a 2/3rds vote by Yath'Tallars can do so.

darn tootin!

+1 to Jeremor. Personally I rather prefer that the yath's superiority be a little unstable. Why? So that only the truly gifted and charismatic and wise will become yath leaders. Those who have enough wisdom to keep the tenuous hold they have on their society through manipulation or downright inspiration. If the yath leaders have to put a lot of work into keeping their people loyal, then that just generates good rp. Drow like to follow strong, intelligent, and powerful leaders, that's just how chaotic evil societies are. If the yath were to become full of incompetent fools, they'd deserve to be overthrown.

I would highly recommend that any male house master always tries to keep the favor of lesser clerics within his house because her ass might be what he eventually will be kissing later on to survive.

I have seen it done time and time again in real life in the work setting and it really is no different in this.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

DM_MindFlayer wrote:

House Masters should never take any flack from a Yath'abban regardless of Gender.

If this happens and the House Master slaps a Yath'abban down like Rick James, then they cannot be declared a Heretic. Bad blood? sure. But heretic? Only The Ulath'Tallar and/or a 2/3rds vote by Yath'Tallars can do so.

There is a difference between even Yath'abban. Senior Yath'abbanen that are ripened and ready to take the final trial should be considered with some respect but as Vader said to Luke, "You are not a Jedi yet. . ."

You. Complete. Me.

This.

(( wow this got longer then I thought, apologies for the textblock))

Now, I apologize a bit for weighing in on this. I have been somewhat absentee from the underdark for some time , even with my recent return it feels a bit weird. But this is a conversion back from when I was most active.


I have read through most of the pages of this so I should be somewhat up to date.. firstly, I want to mirror an earlier sentiment

You guys are some of the best. Its a very deep world down there, and its testament to how passionate the Drow are that this conversion gets so heated at times.

With that said, I am going to do a bit of a hit and run here. There is one subject that I have not seen brought up:

The concern is that the Yath have too much power, not enough respect is being handed out for accomplished members of other castes . One thing I have not seen addressed. Are the Yath, not policing the Yath properly? Its not a club you join. The Yathrin should be eyeing the Yath'abben. The Yath'tellar should be eyeing the Yathrin with the same regard.

Now to devolve into points a bit:

* The House Masters are put into those positions because they are persons of skill, cunning and renown in the Quellar and the camp. Unless they do something to directly offend, degrading them is directly questioning the Ilharess and Yath'tellar. This should not be done with any sort of ease or comfort by anyone else not in their shoes. I am not encouraging a 'run to mommy 'attitude , but a private whipping of a disrespectful Yathrin or Yath'abben would be in everyone's best interests.

*Being a Yath'abben I believe is currently given too much power for their station. I understand respect, and you will never see Vic'riia step out of line in regards to that, but I think before they 'graduate' into full Yathrin, they should not see the degree of power normally afforded to members of the Yath. And Yathrin, BEAT your yathabben, make them work and venerate before they gain the full title. Punish failures of judgment, and undervaluing of allies. Its to much of a free ride as it is, and I think that is leaving some people jaded. Share the love and the whip


*All personal slights do not have to be resolved there and now. I know this one can kind of be hard, but play the long game if you can. I think thats going to create alot of rp for alot of people as you pick and poke at the person who insulted you.


*** Subnote: This last one goes for all the Caste's , got a Yath bringing you down? Pick one of her siblings in faith and raise her above the others. Make everyone know that YOU helped, that YOU are valued to her, and look what the rest of you gave up in punishing me for that small slight .

* Graduation and raising the bar: Now this one is a personal opinion, but I think graduation should be a privilege, not a right and solely not based on time spent. Yath are supposed to rule over others by example of being the superior love. This should be a reward to those that have done 'work' for the community or quellar. Held ceremonies , presided over in house squabbles in a fair (for drow) matter . Basically been an example . This offers the Yath the luxury of power, but knowing they worked (and presumptively) would continue doing such things. As has been said before, the Yath are a position of great trust and power in an very IC way, they should be exemplar of the will of Lolth.


** Born a male? okay its a rough spot. Want to be part of the politics?.. Use a member of the Yath. There are many, many Yath with many objectives out there. Ally yourself with one. Hell, its safer for you, let the member of the Yath take the public glory, while you reap whatever benefit you want from it . Gromph Banre was a master of this with Triel. A male who essentially had the power of the the Ilharess of Ilharess's , and all he had to do was nudge her creatively to do what he wanted. Just remember, BE USEFUL. There is a very large difference between someone who would sit around, wanting power, and someone who goes out there and proves to the power players that you are a pawn not to be discarded. I dont think ive met a Yath yet that doesn't appreciate a bit of sucking up, and some good intel or a good point of insight how she can grow a little, and diminish her others . Just dont club them over the head with it , everyone likes a little tact, and you have to give the yath the ability to believe they are in control

* Cross Quellar power : Now this is a interesting one, and I think it should be highly situational. If the order does not cross the needs of the Quellar? I think thats something a PC should CONSIDER, but not be a demand. But in turn, the Yath should consider the response, and consider how much leeway that PC would get in the future with them. Politics is about the spending of verbal currency, if you and those you know prosper? Its great politics. IF someone burns you?.. well, you spend your coin elsewhere.



I guess that is all thats coming to me at this point. Thanks for your attention if you got this far.

In short, I think that there should be significantly more responsibility, and internal politics. And less heavy handed demands and blanket threats .At the end of the day you reap what you Sew, and no one should be entitled to anything perhaps basic respect because they can click on the cleric class and level.

I would also HIGHLY encourage if you have a minimum spell level/or class level to gain a spot, it is never set to purely be that.

Thanks for your time

~Vic'riia Zau'afin

Ps: Oh! I just forgot the most important thing. I know you all know this, but in times its something that has always helped to stop, and just remind myself of

Its all a game, its a fun game, and we are all here to write our stories. Power may wax and wane, things may not always turn out as you want.. but we are all drow in arms together because we enjoy ourselves . By all means, let the conversion continue, let the passion flow But we all share this lovely little cave that is our own

Almost finished with the Guide, should be up by Monday, maybe sooner if editing and grammar correction isn't an obstacle.

Deathevn wrote:

** Born a male? okay its a rough spot. Want to be part of the politics?.. Use a member of the Yath. There are many, many Yath with many objectives out there. Ally yourself with one. Hell, its safer for you, let the member of the Yath take the public glory, while you reap whatever benefit you want from it . Gromph Banre was a master of this with Triel. A male who essentially had the power of the the Ilharess of Ilharess's , and all he had to do was nudge her creatively to do what he wanted. Just remember, BE USEFUL. There is a very large difference between someone who would sit around, wanting power, and someone who goes out there and proves to the power players that you are a pawn not to be discarded. I dont think ive met a Yath yet that doesn't appreciate a bit of sucking up, and some good intel or a good point of insight how she can grow a little, and diminish her others . Just dont club them over the head with it , everyone likes a little tact, and you have to give the yath the ability to believe they are in control

*cough, cough*

+10

(remind you of anyone? *shadows twitch*)

Gildren wrote:

Deathevn wrote:

** Born a male? okay its a rough spot. Want to be part of the politics?.. Use a member of the Yath. There are many, many Yath with many objectives out there. Ally yourself with one. Hell, its safer for you, let the member of the Yath take the public glory, while you reap whatever benefit you want from it . Gromph Banre was a master of this with Triel. A male who essentially had the power of the the Ilharess of Ilharess's , and all he had to do was nudge her creatively to do what he wanted. Just remember, BE USEFUL. There is a very large difference between someone who would sit around, wanting power, and someone who goes out there and proves to the power players that you are a pawn not to be discarded. I dont think ive met a Yath yet that doesn't appreciate a bit of sucking up, and some good intel or a good point of insight how she can grow a little, and diminish her others . Just dont club them over the head with it , everyone likes a little tact, and you have to give the yath the ability to believe they are in control

*cough, cough*

+10

(remind you of anyone? *shadows twitch*)

+1

Most of the Guide is up, am going to implement two types of Yath'Sargtlin to remove confusion.


Yath'Sargtlin: Will be a position held within the Temple of a House.


Yath'Saruk: Will be a position held within the Church of Lloth.


Also going to solidify the policy on Heresy, but for now what has been mentioned by me in previous posts stands in regards to this.

If any inconsistencies exist within the guide, or somethings I may have missed you feel are important be sure to speak up.

@Mindflayer

I thought Matron Mothers could and often did also hold the title of Yathtaller. Is the requirement of a Illharess not to be a Yathtaller a sever rule to allow more positions of power to be held by more than one player? I like the idea of not having to be a part of the yath to become a Matron Mother as there have been houses in the past where the Matron Mother did not have any divine power what so ever, in example that pysionic house that almost rose to power in the silence of lolth.

The vast majority of Matron Mothers are Yath'tallar prior to becoming Ilharess. Ilharess > Yath'tallar.

They could have held the title of Yath'Tallar, but once a Matron takes the title of Ilharess, they are no longer that Qu'ellar's Yath'Tallar. The House needs to find a new Yath'Tallar as soon as its feasible. The Matron of course would perform duties as the Yath'Tallar, but would not have the 2 vote ability in proceedings. This creates a sense of urgency to fill the Yath'Tallar spot within a House.

I have a thought.
because church ranks are administered via the church shouldn't there be no conflict in holding the rank of yath'tellar and Ilharess.
My reasoning stems from that fact that a ranks such as first or second daughter is bestowed upon (mostly female house clergy) and when that is bestowed the female does not lose her temple rank.
ie, when a yathrin becomes 3rd daughter she doesn't lose the rank yathrin. as the ranks are from 2 bodies. the church and the house.
If house ranks of nobbles (or honorary nobles, as i often see the 1st/2nd/3rd daughter ranks) doesn't conflict with temple ranks, then why should the house rank of ilharess?
Yes the upper level jobs are more strenuous, but this should be manageable through the power of delegation.
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I have another thought.
I agree that the ilharesses are supposed to be yath'tellar. I can see where mindflayer may have not stated this to perhaps generate some more houses, but they are really supposed to be yath I'm quite certain.
*waits for 21st level female weapons master to found house**

The problem is that the Illharess can't be counted on to vote impartially as a yath'tallar. A daughter, though, is usually more than willing to give her mother a hard time in the name of Lolth and use her piety to aid her own advancement (until she reaches Matron, and then it's HER daughter who's keeping her in check).

The 'daughter' positions are more titles or descriptors than actual ranks, much like Ilharn. The Ilharn can be a House Master, for example, and would retain that title because being Ilharn, or a Daughter, confers no actual authority other than when a 1st daughter 'stands in' for her mother.

Conversely Ilharess is a proper title and thus supersedes the more junior title. A Yath'tallar isn't 'also' a Yath'rin and a Yath'abban. They're a Yath'tallar. It's the same deal with the Ilharess rank, just because it's not a 'pure' temple rank doesn't mean it's not a promotion.

One question though - what's the rationale on Ilharesses not being able to vote at all on the ruling council? I mean in most cities the ruling council is just them. I can understand only giving them one vote and leaving the Yath'tallar with two to reflect the hyper-religious stance our camp has taken. It just feels a little odd that the most powerful group of individuals within our society have no position in the ruling body.

What do they even vote on besides heresy cases?

and please dont just say the will of lolth, i know that, im looking for like an actual example.