Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

LoudDave wrote:

What do they even vote on besides heresy cases?

and please dont just say the will of lolth, i know that, im looking for like an actual example.

For the Refugee camp? Not sure, possible plots for retaking the city, supply movements, trade agreements, troops, recent events. Anything that required discussion on what to do and how to do it.


But I mean, that's just an assumption

Under normal circumstances there would be a Council of Houses with a vote for each Ilharess and probably the Ulath'tallar determining City policy such as was needed. In the case of the camp, with the unusually extreme level of theocratic control (not a complaint) this seems to have been replaced with the Yath council. Which is even more of a reason the Ilharesses should get a vote IMO.

As for normally, I assume where the Yath needs to make a collective ruling on something where the Ulath'tallar can't dictate. Whether or not they should step in to interfere in a Quellar War if it's overly damaging the City, for example.

Quote :

Yath'Tallar

The High Priestesses of The Church of Lloth are the governing body over the affairs of Lloth’s will. They rarely need guidance from the Ul’ath’Tallar and are seen as the most present authority on the ways of Llothite divinity. Yath’Tallar are the Elite Clerics of the setting and will usually hold a position of power and influence outside of the church. This station is completely devoted to the greater needs of Lloth’s immediate will for the region they hold dominion over and act as the presiding leaders of The Church of Lloth council. Because of their prestige and rank, they are allowed to make 2 votes during a judgement or proceeding. Yath’Tallar are the only stations that have a cap restriction as the the number of stations available on the server. The current policy is that there will be no more than 1 Yath’Tallar per Qu’ellar, and no more than 1 House-less (independent) Yath’Tallar at any given time. As new Qu’ellars arise then more Yath’Tallars will be allowed, but will never go beyond 1 per in any circumstance. Yath’Tallar are required to commission new Yathrin into the ranks of the church and delegate assignments to Yath’rin that further the goals of Lloth. Yath’Tallar also seek the UL’ath’Tallar if a situation beyond their control occurs or a proceeding becomes vote-locked (tied).

Emphasis, added by me.

This is NOT a Council of Houses - It is the YATH's Council. Thus, Il'haressen have no vote, BUT the Yath'tallar of their House gets 2 - presumably to speak both for herself, and the Il'haress, who gave up her title of Yath'tallar to become the Matron.


That's my take on it, make of it what you will.

The Ilharess sitting on the Council of the church is a privilege. No they do not get a vote, but they do command an entire house that presumably has a relative amount of Yathrin. Ilharessen are expected to cast votes for the progression of their Qu'ellar, Yath' will be expected to cast votes for the progression of Lloth's will. That is why the Ilharess will not have a vote. However, if she is cunning and manipulative enough why couldn't she influence the votes of her House members? Wielding the power of an Ilharess should be like wielding a finely crafted blade, taking skill and practice with measured strikes. Not like an Shotgun where all you have to do is point and shoot. It makes the Ilharessen step up and stay active in the affairs of the church and the family members that are apart of it.


Yes, even at the pinnacle of Power you've got to work.

Assistant DM_MindFlayer wrote:

Most of the Guide is up, am going to implement two types of Yath'Sargtlin to remove confusion.


Yath'Sargtlin: Will be a position held within the Temple of a House.


Yath'Saruk: Will be a position held within the Church of Lloth.


Also going to solidify the policy on Heresy, but for now what has been mentioned by me in previous posts stands in regards to this.

If any inconsistencies exist within the guide, or somethings I may have missed you feel are important be sure to speak up.

Besides these... when is the Power Restructuring for the Male Drow going to happen?
I know that when I asked about the Mage/Fighter school last time.. I was told that it would be done in the city.

But I see ALL this work, debate and such for the female players... and I have to say something.
If we are going to go to all this trouble for building the church structure for the camp, then it is only fair to the players of male drow to do so for men too.
I am talking about fairness to the players... not the characters.

There ARE avenues of power for the Males in the Drow.

1. House Weapons Master: The Strongest station that a Male can reach for in a house. He is responsible for overseeing the training of ALL male fighters in the house. And would be called on by the Matron in planning either attacks or defense of the house. As he is in charge of the house army/guard.
   
2. House Wizard: Second only to the Weapon Master in station for a male in a house. He is called on by the Matron for many things. Magical Warding, Research, Over Seeing the training of mages in the house.
   
3. Consort to the Matron: This is the fastest way to power in a house, thou not the most stable of stations. Think of him as a "Trophy Wife" for the Drow. His job is to look on the arm of the Matron and to help in the creation of more Drow. That is all. He is more likely killed then the other 2 stations in a house, should he upset the Matron.
   
4. Elderboy: This rank is given to the oldest Noble Drow in the house. Should the current holder die (say by fowl-play, like Nalfein Do'Urden) then it passes automatically to the next in line.
   
5. Archmage of the City: The highest ranking for a male in any city! The most famous is Gromph Baenre, he has lived 7 centuries and has held the title of Archmage of Menzoberranzan longer then any Drow before him. While the females control clergy, the arcane arts are in the hands of the male Drow. An advantage that will only show it's true power in many years of service.
   
6. Master of the Sorcere: There are more then one Master at the Sorcere, this is a title shared by many. The highest is the Archmage. But all Master's of the Sorcere share the ability to call on the school's students for assistance (if needed), access the schools magical items and artifacts (within reason..the Archmage has FULL access). And help teach the students that the houses send to learn the ways of Magic.
   
7. Master of Melee-Magthere:There are more then one Master fighters at the Melee-Magthere, and they teach the new students sent to the school by the houses. They also are often called on for special patrols or other duties by the Matron's of the houses of the city.

As you can see there are more then a few paths to power for a male drow. Yet in our camp there is only one... the Consort. I do not feel this right nor fair. If we are to put so much effort into the making of the church of Lolth for the camp. Then I feel that some effort should be given to provide at lest some path to power for the males. Lest wise the camp is unbalanced... and not a true example of Drow life.

Actually, the first four out of those seven are available to males in the camp as of current. Add to that the fact that there are a fair few males who wield political influence theoretically disproportionate to their social standing. Some of them aren't even in a Quellar, technically. They're just very good politicians, and if you seriously mess with them there would be significant backlash if they decided to pull strings/favours to do so.

One thing I would like to see, as a non-player of one, is a bit more respect/whatever given to the Faern characters. There's a reason it's the pinnacle of power for males in drow society - it's a highly respected and powerful position to be in. In terms of society rankings they are, quite literally, second only to the priesthood.

Also worth pointing out is that a large motivator behind this re-jigging of the church structure was precisely to limit the disproportionate amount of power that could be gained by selecting 'female' and 'cleric' at character generation. Most of this debate and effort is actually for the benefit of those of use who've not selected both of those attributes. On a technical level, Quel'faeruk would be the highest station available in a House: Wizard > Assassin > Fighter although frankly the gradation between House Masters should be fairly small. When everyone else is 1-5 points, the difference between 9.0 and 9.5 is fairly irrelevant.



As for my votes query, makes sense now I see the logic behind it - does raise the issue of whether or not we have a House Council, but then I don't see that requiring this level of OOC work to set up relative to the Yath situation, especially with only five seats assuming both npc Quellar turn up.

I feel since the PC houses get together and have meetings frequently enough, that those meetings exist as the "Council Meetings" that you mentioned. Until there are 5 or more PC houses (Good grief) then that method is viable enough.


As for the male structure, I thought the Actual thread

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t14216-player-character-s-guide-ranks-and-stations-of-drow-society#106858


summed it up. though it was drawn up as a Qu'ellar ranking guide it could also apply to the social setting of our server. Though the lines between Warlock and Sargtlin would be a bit murky.

So in actual order should be;

Mage
Assassin
Sargtlin/Warlock/Divine Casters of Seveltarm (these could interchange depending on the character's ability)


So yes you have it right. Does it warrant an actual policy? Or would ambiguity serve us better here?

Got the definitions for Yath'saruk and Yath'Sargtlin up

Assistant DM_MindFlayer wrote:

I feel since the PC houses get together and have meetings frequently enough, that those meetings exist as the "Council Meetings" that you mentioned. Until there are 5 or more PC houses (Good grief) then that method is viable enough.


As for the male structure, I thought the Actual thread

https://dalelandsbeyond.rpg-board.net/t14216-player-character-s-guide-ranks-and-stations-of-drow-society#106858


summed it up. though it was drawn up as a Qu'ellar ranking guide it could also apply to the social setting of our server. Though the lines between Warlock and Sargtlin would be a bit murky.

So in actual order should be;

Mage
Assassin
Sargtlin/Warlock/Divine Casters of Seveltarm (these could interchange depending on the character's ability)


So yes you have it right. Does it warrant an actual policy? Or would ambiguity serve us better here?

I had forgotten you had posted that, thou I had read it when you first posted it. Personally I disagree on the order... I see this station being above Mage & Assassin:

Qu’el’saruk (Weapon Master) The House Weapon Master is the Matron Mother's favored champion and her
personal bodyguard.

Due to the fact that he is both House champion and the bodyguard of the Matron. But to answer your question.. again personal opinion.... I feel they should have policy and rank. I do not see that in the camp right now. Hell it is hard to tell the ranking of the females in camp... let alone the males!

@Tibus_Heth: I do not truly see the first four I posted in the camp that much. Hence I made the post! But I agree with you on the respect issue. When a male has reached a place of power, he should see a little respect come to him. Hell even the Matron's of Menzo would give the Male's the honor of the title they earned. Perhaps only that...but that.

On a side note: Short of looking at crib notes I have made here... how can I tell whom is part of what with the Yath IC? Perhaps something that shows when you mouse over them? A symbol? Something????
Not knowing what title to use with whom has caused friction for my character, more then once. And has caused me to not want to log in as often. And that is sad, because I came to this server because it is an RP server.

The issues of rank with males is generally subtle. You don't see anyone but a priest aggressive about titles unless someone us just being flat disrespectful. Then there is a correction. As for how you know someone is a priest, that has already been addressed. It should be in the characters bio. Just examine said character. Their rank should be there. If it is not then they have no reason to go ballistic on you. Maybe a small verbal correction or something of that nature.

The reason wizards are considered higher is the entire house depends on them to ward it and them against magical attack. The House is vital because this is the heart of everything. The children are here, property, and a good portion of the wealth. Most Drow have lots of enchanted item. Magic is seen so much more in the UD. There are 'very' few mages as opposed to warriors. Also mages are tested by the yath when they reach a certain level of power where as warriors are typically not.

Most of the movers and shakers are not in the open. Your not going to see a male swagger around camp talking smack. I would venture to say most lower level players don't really see much other then yath really doing much. And really why would you? Generals don't typically talk to privates....

Very well said FuzzieBunny.

Kelticraven wrote:

Not knowing what title to use with whom has caused friction for my character, more then once. And has caused me to not want to log in as often. And that is sad, because I came to this server because it is an RP server.

This just shouldn't be happening, if they haven't clearly got a title/rank displayed in their character bio thingie then slapping you down for screwing up is effectively godmodding since they are forcing the mistake on you. The only time this might become an issue is if priestess A is promoted, shebali B has no idea, calls her Yath'abban when he logs in the next day. In that case chewing him out for it is seriously pushing it imo even if it's in their bio.

If you've seen a character with the same biography a hundred times it's not fair to knock you for failing to check it the hundred-and-first time. This can easily be solved with emotes, frankly - a newly promoted Yath'rin is fairly likely to make her insignia very prominent and draw everyone's attention to it for a few days by the nature of it, imo

As for Quel'Saruk - that rank is the House Master of the Warriors. Mages > Warriors, ergo Quel'faeruk > Quel'saruk. Bear in mind that there are a LOT more warriors than mages if we're inclusive of npcs. To say nothing of the fact that they can turn reality inside out. Inside your face. Magic and raw personal power are two of the most important things to Drow, and wizardry is the best route to both. [Edit to avert heresy: best route to both if male]

N.B. This is not to say warriors shouldn't be accorded the appropriate respect. They aren't the bottom rung of society. That's the slaves, by a clean mile. By the nature of their training process and assassination-based promotion methods, you can basically assume that any adult drow is pretty damn dangerous. In theory at least, the incompetent and the weak don't make it that far. In theory the rung below Sargtlin is Free Non-Drow but the gap between the two is many times larger than the cap between Sargtlin and ranking Yath. Even the lowliest warrior, particularly if Housed, is part of the elite. Societies with caste-based slavery are like that.

Tibus_Heth wrote:

Kelticraven wrote:

Not knowing what title to use with whom has caused friction for my character, more then once. And has caused me to not want to log in as often. And that is sad, because I came to this server because it is an RP server.

This just shouldn't be happening, if they haven't clearly got a title/rank displayed in their character bio thingie then slapping you down for screwing up is effectively godmodding since they are forcing the mistake on you. The only time this might become an issue is if priestess A is promoted, shebali B has no idea, calls her Yath'abban when he logs in the next day. In that case chewing him out for it is seriously pushing it imo even if it's in their bio.

If you've seen a character with the same biography a hundred times it's not fair to knock you for failing to check it the hundred-and-first time. This can easily be solved with emotes, frankly - a newly promoted Yath'rin is fairly likely to make her insignia very prominent and draw everyone's attention to it for a few days by the nature of it, imo

As for Quel'Saruk - that rank is the House Master of the Warriors. Mages > Warriors, ergo Quel'faeruk > Quel'saruk. Bear in mind that there are a LOT more warriors than mages if we're inclusive of npcs. To say nothing of the fact that they can turn reality inside out. Inside your face. Magic and raw personal power are two of the most important things to Drow, and wizardry is the best route to both. [Edit to avert heresy: best route to both if male]

N.B. This is not to say warriors shouldn't be accorded the appropriate respect. They aren't the bottom rung of society. That's the slaves, by a clean mile. By the nature of their training process and assassination-based promotion methods, you can basically assume that any adult drow is pretty damn dangerous. In theory at least, the incompetent and the weak don't make it that far. In theory the rung below Sargtlin is Free Non-Drow but the gap between the two is many times larger than the cap between Sargtlin and ranking Yath. Even the lowliest warrior, particularly if Housed, is part of the elite. Societies with caste-based slavery are like that.

I should have clarified a bit more: the Friction was IC and due to calling someone by the wrong rank. It was something that happened in RP, not OOC. My apologizes on not being clearer on that fact. That being said...
How do you pull a bio on someone in game??

Right click and examine to look at a PC or NPC's bio

Bio's canbe changed in the OOC room through an NPC there

Gildren wrote:

Right click and examine to look at a PC or NPC's bio

Bio's canbe changed in the OOC room through an NPC there

Thank you Gildren! Thou I have played on another server..it was a NWN 1 server!
And this server is my first time in Multi-Player in NWN2. Sometimes I feel like a noob, even thou I have played as long as I have!! I will start using that... hopefully it will help smooth things for Shardek.

Would it be possible for the Yath to do tests of the population now and again?

Like to ensure that everyone is devoted to Lolth. A loyalty and faith test. A DM could be involved to make sure.

It could bring a more exciting edge perhaps to those who are not truly followers of Lolth. Add a little twist.

nlyh wrote:

Would it be possible for the Yath to do tests of the population now and again?

Like to ensure that everyone is devoted to Lolth. A loyalty and faith test. A DM could be involved to make sure.

It could bring a more exciting edge perhaps to those who are not truly followers of Lolth. Add a little twist.

Good thought Nlyh - I'll copy your post over into the yath section of the forums