Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

Jeremor wrote:

Except both Yath'tallar in camp are completely inactive currently, and have absolutely no clue if that Yath'abban is roleplaying correctly on a day-by-day basis.

Anybody can step it up for one single day of "testing" to suddenly start giving all the right answers. The problem here is how people are acting when they AREN'T being tested, and in my experience it's very poorly. They are never being disciplined for acting above their rank(an offense a Yath'rin SHOULD be extremely quick to punish for) in that "off-time" when they aren't giving a ceremony or being tested for promotion. And this "off-time" is what most of our complaints are about.


Here's the deal, if you play a Yath character that is so vitally important and powerful to Drow Roleplay, then you should be prepared to have your roleplay judged and critiqued. If you are abusing the power for petty reasons and then never suffering any consequences, you are breaking lolthite roleplay. That is how simple I see it.

+1

gandruff wrote:

I'm going to ask what yathrin talks crap in camp then rp's out in the tunnels, I know i certainly dont, i think I can safely say neither sepis or kor do so where is this information coming from. Despite what she does noone has once come after mi so are you now back to complaining about level 1 yathabbans because it seems like your counting the two issues as the same

Because it is the same issue. We are talking about priest RP as a whole. In general, I feel, something needs to change. You clearly feel different. It is ok, that we disagree. I am not attacking you. I am attacking the system and I really do understand how this can feel like an attack on your RP style. I am trying hard to be general in my critique. I will stop using examples except when I clearly need one to make a point.

ObsidianRaven wrote:

Vanelier wrote:

If we give Yath power to Yath who actually play and know the lore, then THEY will police the yath who have no clue, either by not promoting them, or teaching these lower yath lessons on being yath.

This already kinda happens in game too my knowledge

I support giving these positions to Mi'reli, Tunang, and Vic'are (or however you spell her name).

Id say Yathrin's as a whole should be the ones doing this/assign expirenced Yathabbans to do it

I think what needs to happen is to first HAVE an Upper level force of yath that is committed to policing the church.

Already there, I think Yathtallers deal with yathrins, Yathrins handle Yathabbans, Yathabbans Police everyone else, I think?

Simple solution being: Yath'abban who act in such a way (beating Noble drow, disrespecting House Masters, disregarding lore, etc.) should never be promoted. People who play their Yath character according to proper lore can be teaching these who don't know, and are the ones who should get rewarded with well, promotions.

I would say depends on the situation at hand to be honest, the lore bit though I agree with is they are being offered ooc help and they ignore it, but if they are a new and still learning, send them tal's way ^_^ she and I enjoy stutdent teacher rp's


Let's make a guide to playing Yath - detailing the general limits and extents of each rank's power, and how they should be using that power (in general). Those ranks are yath'abban, yathrin, and yath'tallar.

I like this idea, I think dm axe started something like this awhile back, ill try and find it for you

Um... Honestly, if all the things you say are being done actually were, this thread, and the other one in the lore section would not exist. It is NOT being done

And that's the point I was making - we have Higher level Yath, but they aren't here often enough to be doing the policing. We need to promote someone (Mi'reli, Tunang, the rest on Droke's list) who ARE here often, and know the lore well enough to do the policing correctly. If this requires a sit-down discussion with the DM to draw up a general "Guide to being a Yath" so no one gets treated unfairly OOC, then so be it.

Gin's planned event is a step toward all my suggestions, which is why I said I supported giving a chance for those named in her event to gain their deserved promotions. I feel that some of those are definitely good Yath players, and need the rank so they can properly teach and set an example for lower ranked Yath.

I see a lot of good points being made here and can testify as a player to many of them. Let me ask this, who is opposed to such a ranking structure being designed within our server? And I like to know how many of you are for or against a PC being Ul'Yath'tallar, I personally think this rank should be achievable by a PC. With understanding that stringent criteria are in place. As for Lloth, I have manifested her will to several of you on all sides and have not witnessed the appropriate response to such. The last thing I want to do is to nullify powers from a toon. But if I must so be it. I'd rather the Yath take care of business first before resulting to divine lightning bolts.

I do not think a PC should be Ul'Yath'tallar. I think it's best operated as a NPC/DM, last ditch, pull rug out from under us and shake us up option. That way, she can (hopefully) be a more unbiased moderator between all UD factions.

you could make an npc Ul'Yath'tallar until a pc with enough understanding comes up, that way we will have a backup if that pc stops playing for a while and no others are available.

I still am against having a PC Ulathtallar just from the side of well if a big situation came in like before when gaussafae decided to declare war on the camp and a DM really has to be present to sort that out. If the ulathtallar position has been given to a PC who is currently not online right now then there isnt a great deal the DM can do to mass resolve it. Generally in my opinion at the least the person at the very top should remain NPC to give the DM's some semblance of control.
While I'm very much a fan of power to the players thats in my opinion a bit too far down that road
Lolth as per lore sure as hell wouldnt be stepping in to stop such conflicts as she'd have popcorn readied.

I am completely against a PC being the defacto head priest. This position is like hanging with the post commander. You don't chill with the man around the camp fire.... You shake in your boots to even hear this cat would like a word with you. Not remember back when you guys did whatever and grin.

I am most definitely for the implementation of some variant on the discussed ranking structures and attendant regulation of Yath member power to reasonable levels - and canonical reach of power, not everything in a Drow city is the business of the Yath by default, and the Yath as a whole can't afford to antagonize every House around, that's the sort of thing that starts major civil wars.

As for the Ul'Yath'tallar - NPC definately, the position is just too sensitive for the easily-skewed perceptions of players to be allowed to tip it. To say nothing of the fact that the impression I get as a new player to the Dalelands UD is that there is some bad blood going back quite some way, and older players/characters would be the only realistic options for that role. I don't want to find my first, second, third or whatever Drow toons randomly screwed over for falling in with someone who is in the same organisation as someone who offended the Ul'Yath'Tallar's player ages before I even joined the server. That will drive away as many new players as the current Yath situation does.

Vanelier wrote:

And that's the point I was making - we have Higher level Yath, but they aren't here often enough to be doing the policing. We need to promote someone (Mi'reli, Tunang, the rest on Droke's list) who ARE here often, and know the lore well enough to do the policing correctly. If this requires a sit-down discussion with the DM to draw up a general "Guide to being a Yath" so no one gets treated unfairly OOC, then so be it.

1) Mi'reli is a yathrin.

2) I dont think its fair to add "24/7" sever play time to yathrin requirements. I could see that weighing into Yath'tellar or ilharess.

3) @mindflayer, That rank has alot of power, alot. I would only approve of making it open on the condition the pc was level 30, not multiclassed (of course following in the requirements of yath'tellar), and had 75% of ud support by VOLUME in a one month vote.

4) @everyone, stop beating around the bush, if you have a problem with my pc yath say it, go on to site a specific example so i can apologize, i open myself up to criticism. I need to know these complaints. Or if im not a main "problem" i need to know that's as well.

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I love you Lord Droke, but on the matter of the yath increasing in size I disagree.

Are we haveing a big gov/little gov argument? LOL

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Why do you think so many non yath players are asking for changes?

Because right now, there is no Yath. There are houses and there priestesses. If the Yath does not work, as in meet discuss punishments and Yath issues, you get Yath acting on there own and not being checked for it. Again, I do not believe size is relevant, what has caused these past issues, is a lack of an actual Yath. In a correct setting, if say Taleshia (or insert any other random Yath from opposing houses) were to punish a Zau'Afin, she could. Anything more than a basic whipping though, should be discussed and bartered by the Yath or the Zau'Afin leadership. If it hapeens to be one of the leadership, then the Yath would deal with it. We have not been able to do this in the past, as the Yath was not working together correctly or at all. Seriously, I would call meetings in the past and not even get a response to simply arrange a date. A congregation that does not congregate is not a congregation. So what you get would be Taleshia (or insert any other random Yath from opposing houses) acting out punishments outside the Yath, like naming someone heretic, or trying to sacrifce someone on the spot.

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Heck the no Drow on the surface rule is what is bringing this issue to a head. We use to be able to escape when the RP got to crazy. Now there is no where to go, so we are forced to deal with it.

If surface play is integral to any Drow's rp, or if a Drow PC can not function well with out escaping to the surface, something is wrong and I am not to convinced the number of Yath in the UD has anything to do with it, not by far. As I have said

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I am trying to account for the Active players here, I am aware we have non-yath that pop their heads in or log onto those PC's 1-3 times a week. But I am trying to account for day-by-day.

So are you saying because so many of the regulars are Yath we should limit the members?

I simply do not agree with the assertion that there are more priestess then others. Here is a basic rundown of Zau'Afin (tried to keep it to the people who log inthe most), keep in mind Dabel'kith has a few more peeps but I am pretty sure the balance is about the same:

non yath Females
Nanga
Za'nara
Ky'Less
Naralia
Syrani
Jhaniss (Talasprina's Alt)

Males
Dargoth
Naradril
Chakos
Sorn'Chazs
Naralad (as of tonight if all goes right)

Priestesses
Il'haress Ginthrae
yath'tellar Ala
Yathrin Talasprina
Yath'abban Tunang (Nanga's Alt)
Yath'abban Mataya

5 Priestesses, 5 males and 6 non yath females.. All of varying ranks. Keep in mind the alts are played less then there regualar PCs and if we crossed out the alts, there would still be more non Yath than Yath. Even if Tunang and Mataya are made Yathrin - Where is the imbalance?

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I'm going to ask what yathrin talks crap in camp then rp's out in the tunnels, I know i certainly dont, i think I can safely say neither sepis or kor do so where is this information coming from. Despite what she does noone has once come after mi so are you now back to complaining about level 1 yathabbans because it seems like your counting the two issues as the same

Yes, I can say the same for Zau'Afin priestesses. Hence my earlier questions of "Do you think our current Yath players do these past transgressions?" Are you worried that Tunang, Mataya, and Taleshia will do these kind of things if made Yathrin? All of us Yath from both houses are at a point where we all get along and work well together. It seems to me like people are tying to limit us current Yath players for past transgressions done by past Yath players, whose characters are retired or dead.
If the problem is some upity newb with a cleric char here and there, a United and working Yath will fix this. Less Yath that will NOT work together will breed occurances like this, as will a large Yath that does NOT work together. In truth the only real thing you get from less Lolth is more room to stray from Lolthian drow RP with out consequences.

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I think what needs to happen is to first HAVE an Upper level force of yath that is committed to policing the church.

This is kind of what I am pushing for. A Yath that works. Not houses with priestesses like we have now.

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Honestly, if all the things you say are being done actually were, this thread, and the other one in the lore section would not exist. It is NOT being done

I can agree with this. It is not being done. However the size of the Yath is again irrelavent to this fact. If the Yath actually worked these things would be done. Yath would have more of a purpose besides, I'm the bees knees, now get down on yours. The problems you keep siting would not exist (and I am hard pressed to beleive they do now, every current Yath I can think of does not do this), and it would not matter if there were 2 Yath or 200 Yath.

I am totally with Gandruf, I know you guys are not attacking our RP in particular, but seeing as the two of us do work well OOC and IC and we also do so with the other current Yath characters, it leaves the both of us questioning where are you getting your info. Those of us who play Yath currently, should not be penalized for what others have done in the past. Especially since the majority (all of us I think) of us are trying to make the Yath mean something. Gandruff, wherebeagle, and the rest of us can do this, in the words of Vader - "I find your lack of faith disturbing"

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And that's the point I was making - we have Higher level Yath, but they aren't here often enough to be doing the policing. We need to promote someone (Mi'reli, Tunang, the rest on Droke's list) who ARE here often, and know the lore well enough to do the policing correctly. If this requires a sit-down discussion with the DM to draw up a general "Guide to being a Yath" so no one gets treated unfairly OOC, then so be it.

Here, here. My thoughts exactly.

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Let me ask this, who is opposed to such a ranking structure being designed within our server?

No, not at all. I want the Yath to mean something.

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And I like to know how many of you are for or against a PC being Ul'Yath'tallar, I personally think this rank should be achievable by a PC.

Been there, done that. Ulathtellar is to powerful to be played properly with out constant DM aid.
From one of my earlier posts -
Here in Dalelands, the Ulath'tellar is an NPC. Having played a drow of this rank on another server before, I agree with this. When my character took control of the position she quickly took much of the power to give the Yath rank and the training of the Yath of all the houses upon herself. What I learned was this is how the church controls the houses and has power over them. By controlling there leaders, in turn, their leaders control much of the Yath with the Ulath'tellar having the final say. This reason, and of course the god like powers she should have are why I feel the Ulath'tellar is best played as an NPC.

To respond to LoudDave -

1) and if she passes the tests and the DM agrees, I think she could also be a good yath'tallar - I see her more than I see the other yath'tallar (which may be because they are out of my time zone)

I don't advocate 24/7 - I know I can't even hold myself to it. Life and the rest happens, but thats why we can't necessarily limit the number of Yath that are of higher rank - we need multiples to cover multiple time zones and play times. We need people who dedicate most of their play time to playing their yath toon. We need people who know the lore and abide by it.

I love Ala. So much. She's a great example of what Yath are and should be - but the sad thing is there is only one of her, and we need her on more than one can possibly be expected to be on as a player.

I don't know a lot about Phaerune, but I found her to be good at what she does, when she can be on. The fact remains we need more Yath who play like them, who can devote either more time or cover a different time-zone.

Vanelier wrote:

1) yes i agree, Mi would make a good yath'tellar. and if she cant be yath'tellar then first daughter, but this is a house matter for us to decided. but i would like her to be fist daughter, she deserves it.

2) again, im opening up myself to criticism, voice your concerns about my pc. i hearby grant immunity temporarily from the "rp judging" rule. lets have it.

3) @mindflayer, i change my answer, i now do not support the rank proposal by any circumstances.

I've never even heard of, spoken with or seen your PC long enough to say anything about her good bad or indifferent. I am inclined to think the best of all characters and players until experience shows otherwise. Everything I've said is a completely general opinion from my experience on the server.

Thank you for clarifying.
Several events/points go into making something be "in general", in general may be decomposed and examined. if its is not examined it would be the same as complaining to customer support that you don't like a product, but then denying them information on how to improve. I cant vouch for all yathrins in saying their pc is on the table, so i wont ask you to decompose your "in general".

lets get some work done here.

@fuzziebunny, Zanara you stated this thread, no? im sure you've seen me around from time to time. I would like to her your personal comments on my character please with regard to errors ect.

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Let me ask this, who is opposed to such a ranking structure being designed within our server?

No, not at all. I want the Yath to mean something.

In case you are asking about the structure involving Yath and the then house clerics. No I do not support that, I beleive it undermines and weakens the Yath when the Yath lets Divine casters not be tied to the church. I strongly believe that divine casters that are not of the Yath would be hunted and made to conform to the Yath or die for the Sedition against the Yath.
If it is just a simple restructuring of the Yath itself, a clear OOC layout of police powers, and simply meeting more often and working as a congregation, I am all for it.

Technically, I started this thread by suggesting we hold an event to give our curent crop of Yath'abbans some rank. Since Fuzzie and others spoke out against it, this debate followed. Mindflayer separated the event planning thread and this one so we could discuss this with out destroying the planing thread with debate. Fuzzie's post is first simply because they spoke up first.

No one has followed through with the planning of the event yet, because we are waiting to see where the cards fall with this debate.

Alright guys, can we drop the whole "Oh, I've never heard of anything like these complaints happening! I think you're making them up!" plausible deniability defense? You know full well that we can't just start posting a play-by-play of every negative experience with other players of Yath characters and start pointing fingers. That will derail into a flamewar and get this thread locked. I think it's a rather disingenuous counterargument to use that does nothing to solve the problems(problems that our own DM has said he's wanting solutions to).

I have had plenty of recent rp experiences with Yath here that I felt were incorrectly handled, or were somewhat out-of-character in how they were handled. I still see the same mistakes being played out constantly and no one corrects them. I am not going to write up a list of names for your perusal, I am not going to send tells and deal with OOC drama ingame, I am not going to bother getting a DM involved for every single little snit.

What I will do is post in the topic specifically created for the debate with how I feel it can be solved, to be more fun for everybody playing. Right now, it is not always fun.


Anyway. I am against the Ulathtallar position being PC controlled. I am a natural cynic and frankly don't trust one human being with that much influence over a game I'm trying to have fun playing. Could some people do it very well? Most certainly. Could some people completely ruin my experience by doing it so poorly? Absolutely. The chance of a good Ulathtallar does not outweigh the possibility of an absolutely atrocious one.

A DM isn't always around to make sure they're playing right, and I don't think to take screenshots every time somebody does something I think is wrong... I just quit playing. I think most players are like me in that respect.


I think we are all 'for' having a more structured temple in camp, one that actually has some semblance of... organization, I guess. A single entity to complain directly to. Do I think that alone will solve all of my problems? No. But I think it's a decent start.

Thank you for clarifying LD,
So i guess we should plan an event while we debate it and if the debate leads to the negative then just have the event fall through.

personally i think the level requirements for yathabben need to be like 10, and yathrin 18, yath'tellar like 24. Reasons, no more level one yath trumping 90% of the ud. yathabben is a powerful rank, it is, it needs a reasonable requirement. reason 2) yathrin should be 18 imo because, i mean "full priestess" with that logic she should be expected to call on all the blessings of Lolth. not just 1/2 of them. I would even contemplate making yathrin require lvl 21, because i think that one level of rp only experience makes a world of difference.

Also I agree with LD on the topic of non-temple divine casters.

Lord Droke wrote:

I simply do not agree with the assertion that there are more priestess then others. Here is a basic rundown of Zau'Afin (tried to keep it to the people who log inthe most), keep in mind Dabel'kith has a few more peeps but I am pretty sure the balance is about the same:

non yath Females
Nanga
Za'nara
Ky'Less
Naralia
Syrani
Jhaniss (Talasprina's Alt)

Males
Dargoth
Naradril
Chakos
Sorn'Chazs
Naralad (as of tonight if all goes right)

Priestesses
Il'haress Ginthrae
yath'tellar Ala
Yathrin Talasprina
Yath'abban Tunang (Nanga's Alt)
Yath'abban Mataya

Hey I'm active I've just been an initiate for 2 months

Level 10 seems reasonable for a yath'abban. I would also like to see them RP gaining acceptance from the church to join. This could actually be a tread in the forums where yathrin or above could answer if someone has timezone issues. That way everyone who wants to, can still have the ability to gain rank.

Yathrin at 21? I will tell you that the first actually rped level is a rough one. It takes being committed to the RP to do it. I also think it will deter many peep that might be considering a priest. What about making it 20? There also needs to be tests of Lolth involved, sacrifices, and raids that go with this. Why not even make this an event?

To be yath'tallar? I think level 28. It would be rough to get there but it can be done. I would not say it needs to be a pure cleric build, but you need to have at least 17 levels of cleric and the ability to cast level 9 spells. On top of DM appoval, tests of Lolth and the backing of your Matron.

I'm against having Yathtallar so high, i've been playing a drow for almost 3/4 of a year quite consistantly and I'm still quite a way off 28, by setting the bar soo damn high your going to make sure we never have a yathtallar. I know phae isnt 28 for starters and really I for one really do not like setting level limits.
Little know fact Mi was made yathrin around level 7, 8 or so. I ended up spending like a month having to be reeealy damn careful to show enough forcefulness so as to not look weak but not enough that people would go 'ok prove it'
Generally if people have the RP needed for taking the rank I don't think we should drop 'YOU MUST HAVE GRINDED THIS MUCH' especially as some yath I know have been playing longer than me and have only just hit epic as they don't grind at all.
I'm fine with yathabban requiring a ceremony to get into and fine for guidlines of you should be X level but please no 'you must be x high'
Also I would rather have for yathtallar not you must be full pure cleric, instead you must be a cleric rather than a favored soul or eldritch disciple. I like seeing people try experimenting with builds, if your going to have an apsolute head of yath sure they have to be pure cleric. For yathtallar really it should be all down to the RP of that person not their build

So my reasoning for yathrin being 21 is not "you must have grinded this much". Its "you must have rped this much" as a guarantee. and thats 21 total. so 17 cleric (level 9 spells, a FULL spellbook for the Full priestess) and 4 levels of whatever.

My reasoning for yath'tellar being 24: 24 is a good distance from 21 without being too high. i think 28 is two high. of the 24 levels, 20 should be cleric. I think it makes sense that you must be an epic cleric of lolth to be a High Priestess.

Also restate, 10 levels of Cleric for yath'abben, no total level requirement.

This solution addresses the desire for non pure clerics, the desire to eliminate the level one yathbben troll, the desire for well played yathrins.

What about a requirement for turn undead as only clerics get that?
That would without a doubt pretty much bar me from Yathtallar, hell it would bar me from Yathabban, Mi has 5 levels of cleric. So that essentially then amounts to nomatter how your RP is you can't get any higher because you felt like trying something interesting.
I don't like penalizing peoples builds, if it was at least 5 levels of cleric sure or if instead you go off what spell level you can get but it has to be off cleric casting