Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

Listen

It is silly for either side to not consider the other, not to mention self-defeating. If we all want the UD to work then you need to take all sides into account. You take away all the reasons to play a priest then priest players will just stop playing. You gimp Houses they stop playing. Things only get better when we try to work together. Nothing stops that faster then people thinking the other side is only out for themselves.

I am not telling any one to shut up or stay out of the debate. I am saying at least try to consider that maybe, everyone just wants to help the community, not just themselves. Because if this whole debate is just about helping you or me, might as well stop it now. No point in just playing by yourself.

star23_16 wrote:

Fuzzie do bring up a good point to think over. Let for a moment put lore aside and think on the problems that been raised in the past. Just know what i am gonna say now is not a pointing finger at anyone, been too long since i was in UD with May to even be able to lol. Still let put lore to the side just for the moment as i say this.

One problem is and always had been that Yath had too much focus. I will say this in not insulting manner but to give a clear point. The Camp had before been nothing but a yath playground. Any non yath had nothing to say, nothing to do unless they was ordered by yath. Even Illharess of houses was pretty much pushed about in some manner. House members often got pinched between the house and yath ordering. Often a high ranking mage was even treated as a plaything for the yath who went to torture.

In a meaning the entire purpose of house structure was not there often. The purpose is obtain influence and band together, the benefit should be clear under normal ideas. To become noble and part of a house mean protection from outside influence such as lower yath. By the norms the yath should not start to mess randomly with high ranking house member and risk pissing off a entire house.

What you people really need is to find a rp structure of all this that give room and a rather clear idea of when a yath can interfere with a house and when they cant. There is no perma death so it further make things odd when we say Drow RP. As a non Yath you just cant really plot a back stab in the hidden and get rid of a yath who is upset to act against you. Not to mention this is not a city with 50.000 actively Drow players to get suspicious on. It a server with maybe about 20 Drow to choice from.

Axe did alot of good things but the old focus on yath power and staring at every single lore as law just dont work in a server mind when we say Drow. You need to think in a smaller scale and remember we are only a certain number of people, it not a self sufficient city with thousands of people to blame and hide among.

Therefore it bit important everyone has something to do and aim for. Personally i feel the Chruch should have its niche and its purpose and the Houses should have it own. It should not mix so the yath can get inside influence of a house in the large scale and interfere with the house on every turn. The same time the house should not ignore the yath and Lloth's command.

I had not been thinking that much on things since obviously i am not part of the UD but a fast idea i purpose is like this:

Very top priestess, likely npc ruled so the dm can guide you all better.

1 yath'taller position in one house only, this still allow the church to interact with the house and the priestess will advice and guide the Ilharess in the matter of Lloth.

Yath outside the house will have to address the Illharess and the house Yath'taller if there is a problem with a house member. The Illharess can then be in some charge of whatever punishment given if any was needed. This will remove the idea that a outside Yath just walk up and start torture a high ranking house member out of boredom ..so to speak.

The church become it own entity much like a house would who oversee the training of newly priestess and judge them. They can with the help of the top priestess also act as the leader of the Drow if needed and try to work with the houses in the more global events, like Mearmydria as example. This also give purpose to any non yath who have other skills, like mages and assasins. By having the Church working with the houses their illharess can still give order and be bit in control rather then mage A sudden get ordered by a outside Yath.

I agree with a lot of this.

It's gotten better, but yeah, it used to be a lot worse. In the past, even as an epic-level Wizard who was the Quel'faeruk, new players would make Yath'abbans and I'd get tortured by a bunch of level twos who might have just been trolls. I couldn't speak at all in events, and basically the only way I could participate was by killing things. Random Yath'abbans would get pissed off at me and my brother and simply declare us heretics without any proof, and we were banned from camp repeatedly. This isn't really the case anymore, though... Granted I think there is still too much focus on the Yath.

There is another problem that I feel a lot of people face. A lot of toons simply can't participate in events, or even really talk at all or do anything. When I'm playing my shebali toon all I can really do is emote in most RP situations. In addition, if your character is a shebali, rothe, non-yath, or non-house master member of a qu'ellar... You basically have no say in the outcome of events, and even then all the decisions are made by the Yath anyway. Granted this sort of makes sense with the power structure of Drow society, but still, it's not very fun.

I want to start off by saying this.



All of you down here in the UD are the best damn Drow RPers I've seen. We have a mixture of depth in our ranks that make for beautiful roleplay that leaves me thinking about this game when I'm at work, yes that's right, when I am at work, I can't wait to get home and log on to hang out with you guys.


Whoever judges your RP needs to reevaluate themselves on WHY they are doing it, you're free to play who you want, as you want. But as Fuzzie said, It is the greatest thing you can do, to try to help your COMMUNITY as much as possible, but please do not let it destroy your will to play.

It takes two to tango, and to do it properly both parties have to meet each other halfway.


No we shouldn't have to RP only in camp, that defeats the purpose of having our own little hobbles in the rock to hang out in and some of these Plots going on wouldn't have that same effect.


This is not so much of a problem as it is a solution, as stated you have two sides who play parts and we are just worried about what happens to us. THAT'S OK. It's your PC, you have a right.


I just want you to know that you guys are the best and hold my respect. I'm really glad I play here, and this is what keeps Demo as my main and only PC.

@Selvetarm

...... >.>..... damn you.... Actually kinda made me teary eyed <.<...... you rock too. ~hugs and slinks back too ploting and evil stuff!~

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(I hope this is not off subject, if it is, sorry just fineshed a night shift and may have misread stuff.)

@ Topic

Qu'ella, fill up the temple right? I dont think the two can exsit seprately, Qu'ella yath will have a more easy time getting stuff due too the influance and resources they have accsess too, how ever unaligned houseless Yath have more free will and no social/political chains binding them too anothers influance, often being the Illharess, or 1st or 2ed sister... somtimes... all three.

@ Chakos

Thers nothing stopping people making Yathabban disapear when their out in the tunnels, on patrol, drow are sneaky gits after all and the number one rule i think covers everything (did not get caught? pats on the back from everyone!).

~~ Stuff I do on Tal that may be relivent too this which some folks might find useful ~~

Spoiler:

Anyhow, best head too bed before I pass out. g night everyone see you all in game soon! ;D

Quote :

Thers nothing stopping people making Yathabban disapear when their out in the tunnels, on patrol, drow are sneaky gits after all and the number one rule i think covers everything (did not get caught? pats on the back from everyone!).

People keep saying this...


There are a TON of things stopping non-yath from taking revenge on Yath. First of all, even finding them in the tunnels is a rarity these days. Second, Divine Casters generally outclass everyone else in PvP except epic lvl Arcane Casters and warlock powerbuilds(Stone Body and Iron Body are ridiculous stupid spells that are basically "I Win" buttons against a lot of pure melee). Third, they don't actually "disappear"... we aren't a permadeath server.

If you want to get revenge on a Yath through PvP(which is the way it's usually going to end), you've got to plot a way to get them into the private tunnels. Then you've got to choose who will help you(It's certainly not a given that you're powerbuilt well enough to kill a divine caster 1v1), being careful that nobody will betray you and spill the whole plan to the Yath. Then you have to wait for the right time, where you've got everybody in place and the Yath is lured out somewhere without witnesses(this time is likely to never come, btw). At this point, you hopefully kill her. Then she respawns with 24 hours amnesia, and you've accomplished essentially nothing.

If any parts of that above paragraph go wrong, your character is now a suspected heretic and likely to be tortured by the Yath. Congratulations, that risk sure is worth the reward of making somebody respawn with 24 hours amnesia, huh?

On the other side, all a Yath has to do to get "revenge" on somebody, is make up a petty reason to lecture and torture them. There will be no consequence against her.


Feel free to think up all the complicated plans you want, and say how easy it would be to carry them out, but you're just blowing smoke. Actually making them happen is next to impossible, and not worth the effort even if you do get extremely lucky and succeed. This is why trying to make a perfectly 100% Lore-accurate lolthite setting is impossible, because you are trying to hammer a square idea of lore into the triangular hole that is NWN2 mechanics & Dalelands Beyond server rules. Murder is vitally important to Lolthite lore, and here murder doesn't actually exist(is it really murder if the person respawns five seconds later? I don't think so). All you will succeed in doing is making a cleric paradise, and the rest of us are background characters at best.

There are non-lethal ways to get rid of someone, though. If being a heretic is the ultimate no-no for a Drow, frame the leader to look like one.

Use a triangle solution for your triangle problem, rather than think you only have square pegs to work with.

Lovely, tell me how you would do that.

Please illustrate a plan, that can be carried out ingame, for me.


I knew that something similar to your post would be the first reply, which is why I put this in there:

Quote :

Feel free to think up all the complicated plans you want, and say how easy it would be to carry them out, but you're just blowing smoke. Actually making them happen is next to impossible, and not worth the effort even if you do get extremely lucky and succeed.

Non-yath don't get to declare Yath as heretics, and goodluck trying to get a Yath to do it for you. There is no magical "evidence of heresy!" item you can just find laying on the ground. The moment your character opened his mouth with whatever made-up evidence you're trying to pawn off, your entire plan would be embarrassingly transparent and obvious. Not to mention we see plenty of Yath doing stuff not exactly Yath-approved, but the only thing trying to point attention to it gets you is dirty looks from all the others. The atmosphere we've created has the Temple so much higher than everyone else, that pointing out one of it's member's flaws is akin to pointing out it's flaws, and therefore not something you should do if you don't enjoy getting lectured("Blah blah it's a Yathrin's job to judge that blah blah you're just a stupid male etc etc what do you know about Lolth").

You'd have to find a Yathrin or above who REALLY hates the same person you do, and then you'd have to get extremely lucky for the character you hate to misstep in a very huge way. Even then, it will take months and months of plotting to have a chance, it probably still won't work. I'm not just making stuff up when I say there's no consequences for Yath characters... I've been playing down here a long while, I've seen it.

P.S. It should also be mentioned... I don't want to ruin another person's character by having them declared a Heretic. All we want is a way to slap an uppity Yath'abban and let them know that they should be careful who they try to boss around. But physically harming a Yath is punishable by exile(or it was in the past), and trying to get them punished with creative nonviolent plotting simply doesn't work. It's a lot of work without any payoff.

First off, being snippy when offered advice gets you nowhere. :\

You said you can't kill them. I offered a better solution, which wasn't what you were warning about "blowing smoke" over.

You're now telling me that you absolutely, 100% cannot do anything to a person. You can't hurt them and you can't not-hurt them. I feel like you're just giving up and want someone to agree with you about it, or maybe want a DM to just make it all better for you somehow. If this is all so difficult, if it's just too much work, why don't you just ask the other player OOCly for a solution and work together, rather than bemoan how you can't do anything?

There are always ways around a problem, but being "nice" to another character isn't exactly going to be in keeping with Drow behavior. Apparently you'd be fine with killing the person if there was permadeath, but "ruining" them would be too much? If you want to give someone a reason not to push you around, be as evil and cruel as you possibly can. Otherwise you're a pushover who is always going to be stepped on. Bad enough you're a male, right? I'd have to assume that someone who rolls an evil Drow in a position of power is going to expect plots and attacks. They SHOULD be willing to work "with" you in that regard.

So yeha. If you don't want to solve your problem with murder, framing, poison, magic, teamwork, solo assassination, political intrigue, demons, pawns, minions, or even the other player, what the heck are you doing as a Drow? Make a new PC, come up to the surface and enjoy yourself instead.

Wakefield, how much fun is it to be railroaded along a set of tracks in RP, knowing that no matter which avenue you take, it will all end up one way - YOU with your back over the altar or declared a heretic, no matter what the level your opponent is, no matter how wrong they might've been , simply because they rolled a female cleric and you didn't?

No body likes insta-losing. Especially when it happens all the time.

A Yath'abban shouldn't be able to be mouthy to a House Master, male or not, without getting repercussions, either from other Yath or the House Master. A house Master shouldn't get auto-branded a heretic for putting a trainee in their place.

That's what's upseting here. That the above is not true, yet.

Edit: I understand what you're saying Wakefield, but when you try all those things before, with many different people, and keep getting the same outcome, you learn not to even bother anymore, cuz you know how it all will end. (unless of course you're seeking a way to perma a character)

Vanelier wrote:

Wakefield, how much fun is it to be railroaded along a set of tracks in RP, knowing that no matter which avenue you take, it will all end up one way - YOU with your back over the altar or declared a heretic, no matter what the level your opponent is, no matter how wrong they might've been , simply because they rolled a female cleric and you didn't?

No body likes insta-losing. Especially when it happens all the time.

A Yath'abban shouldn't be able to be mouthy to a House Master, male or not, without getting repercussions, either from other Yath or the House Master. A house Master shouldn't get auto-branded a heretic for putting a trainee in their place.

That's what's upseting here. That the above is not true, yet.

That's where the logic comes in, and the self-entitlement.

If a player doesn't understand that being a Trainee doesn't give them political prowess, they are evidently doing it wrong. If a Yath'abban insults a WeaponMaster, he should backhand that dense-loaf-of-bread to get her mind back on track. Because that's what he would do.

and if that Yath'abban wants to play Mommy/Daddy, those people helping her need to realize that it's lowering her social status and power and why would they want to do that?

Why would you want to help a Yath'abban, who got beat up by a superior Illythiiri and was not intelligent enough to know her bounds? What gains? ("Oh lulz, she might be strung in da future!" - Is not always a valid idea.)


Why would you seek to make allies with someone who has no common sense?

(as you read the green text, please read is as if being spoken in a friendly none agreesive voice:) )(as whats written below could come over as agressive as you dont have my tone of voice too judge it by, thats not the case just putting forward random ideas and also looking and welcoming me being corrected if I said something wrong.)

Vanelier wrote:

Wakefield, how much fun is it to be railroaded along a set of tracks in RP, knowing that no matter which avenue you take, it will all end up one way - YOU with your back over the altar or declared a heretic, no matter what the level your opponent is, no matter how wrong they might've been , simply because they rolled a female cleric and you didn't?

Perma death might not be an option, though they are some players out there that would concent too perma death if the role play its self was, very fun and most likely at the end of a epic (as in amazingly cool) story line. also, there are other ways too make people disapear though, like as one compleatly random crazy idea, could just dog pile random Yathabban pinning her, making her magic defences useless, gag her, tie her up and if you for example had a certain surfacer contact you could sell her off too a free haven slave as exotic meat and likely not see said female again for eithe a long long long time, or should you, the expirence, would have likely changed her mentaly, ultimately, best way I normaly find is, before you attempt too do any kidnap, selling off into slaverly, cature and torture and reprograming rp, is just too speak too the player of the character you want too job in oocly first and have a nice long chat, work out something fun that works for both of you, and offers her some fun new rp and rewards him with at least a minimum short period of respite. and want too ensure you dont get caught, heck just dress up in a random dieguse or something! ^_^ be sneaky hehe.

ultimately working togeather oocly will always offer more fun, enjoyment and have a higher chance of sucsess that attempting too surprise someone.

No body likes insta-losing. Especially when it happens all the time.

A Yath'abban shouldn't be able to be mouthy to a House Master, male or not, without getting repercussions, either from other Yath or the House Master. A house Master shouldn't get auto-branded a heretic for putting a trainee in their place.


oocly wise, kinda agree with you, however and please do correct me if im wrong about this, lore wise, a house master no mater how great their skills are, or meny years of expirence they have will always be considered second too a Yath, even a yathabban because of the simple fact, shes a she and apart of the temple, it may be considered unfair, it may be infurrating, but thats just how the Illythiiri culture works.

However, say that, House masters are not defenceless, they most lastly have the ear of people the yathabban requires something from, perhaps a Yathrin that is mentoring her, the house master might not be able too do anything apart from pass on the information but said yathrin or yathtaller who the house master has the ear of most certainly can. Also, House Masters from what iv been told oocly can say no too Yathabban, true should be very diplomaticly done but still they can refuse a Yathabban.
That's what's upseting here. That the above is not true, yet.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

That's where the logic comes in, and the self-entitlement.

If a player doesn't understand that being a Trainee doesn't give them political prowess, they are evidently doing it wrong. If a Yath'abban insults a WeaponMaster, he should backhand that dense-loaf-of-bread to get her mind back on track. Because that's what he would do.

and if that Yath'abban wants to play Mommy/Daddy, those people helping her need to realize that it's lowering her social status and power and why would they want to do that?

Why would you want to help a Yath'abban, who got beat up by a superior Illythiiri and was not intelligent enough to know her bounds? What gains? ("Oh lulz, she might be strung in da future!" - Is not always a valid idea.)


Why would you seek to make allies with someone who has no common sense?



oocly agree massively with you on this, not sure about the back handing though, would be kinda cool if it could happen, just dont think it actually would lore wise, um anyone know for certain?

ObsidianRaven pretty much covered it. Work WITH other players OOCly to move things along. If they refuse and force others to do things, speak to the DMs privately to see if it's an issue which needs to be corrected.

That's because it wasn't advice, wakefield. It was a dismissive and condescending reply that I've received every time I've tried to bring up this problem before. Maybe you don't realize it's dismissive or condescending, but it is. It implies that the problem is us, not the Yath, because we're simply not creative enough to have thought of alternative solutions to our problem. It completely misses my point that the problem is that we HAVE to go through these amazing lengths to get even a tiny bit of retribution, but Yath characters barely have to try. And we'll still end up losing 9 times out of 10.

There is very little expected of Yath characters, in spite of the outrageous power they wield in our little setting. There is a lot expected of our characters(in terms of obedience, anyway), for the depressingly slight amount of power we wield. This is what I was saying.

And yeah, believe it or not, we aren't all down here trying to permakill each other. Just because our characters are evil doesn't mean we the players are. I'd rather not destroy somebody's epic character they've played for a year or more without their permission... but having to get their permission means it's not really a very accessible way to 'punish' characters. Most people don't want to permakill their characters. If we all wanted to permakill each other, the Underdark would be no fun whatsoever because everybody would be making up petty ways to "win" against one another(and this sort of atmosphere has happened before in the past).

You misunderstood my statement that you can't make a 100% lolthite setting without permakill... I am not advocating permadeath. I am saying that we shouldn't be trying so hard to smash every bit of lore in perfectly, when we're missing the key component that makes all that lore work: simple murder and assassination.



I'm sorry that you took offense when I illustrated all the ways your 'advice' doesn't really work, and decided to start attacking me personally. If you actually played a drow as a main character, maybe you'd understand. Because frankly the stuff you're saying shows me you have no clue. On the other hand, I've played down here for over a year. Other people have played here even longer who are agreeing with other things I've said in the thread.

I get what you're trying to say about working with other players, really I do... but what you don't understand is the work involved. I've tried to make these sorts of overarching plots work before, and they always fall flat on their face because somebody goes inactive, somebody gets cold feet and backs out, or you just never get an opportunity to put it into action. It is not nearly as simple as you two think.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

This has already happened.
Can you name even 5 characters that are political powerful that are not priest? Can you even name 3? What about 1? Can we name 1 non yath character that seems to have a goodly amount of political power, and not just in their own house?

I would love to see non yath drow have a purpose but I have been waiting for about 9 months and I have yet to see it.

Please forgive me, I do not mean to be dismissive nor am I meaning to blow my own horn here, but I can name "one" and would even be willing to add a few more names to that list, including your main toon Fuzzie.

Raye'Khan is a political power in the UD. He is a male, and a non-power built wizard who has never won a PvP with anyone close to his own level. My character's entire power-base is based in politics.

Raye'Khan was key in removing in his former Ilharess and placing another who would favor him more on the throne. He started that manipulation with his promotion by Liditch to house master status (even though she only did so to spite another house yathrin).

Raye'Kahn has influenced Illharess Zau'Aflin, and thus those below her, as well regarding the Eion'us plotline (even though sadly due to RL I've not been able to be on line to further that) in order to gain access to something he could never access directly due to Za'nara out ranking him from being a female house master.

Raye'Khan has tricked a yath'taller into telling him who has/had what artifact and where and then gone to yet another yathrin to confirm that information, by and then to their Ilharess to weed out inconsistencies.

Of course, none of this has been a blunt flexing of PvP muscles because that is not the ilythiiri way.

Raye has demonstrated a "goodly amount of power" through influence which is, if we follow the lore, the only real source of power in ilythiiri society.

Let me say that one again - political influence is the only real source of power within ilythiiri society

There are several other times and issues Raye has twisted about to further has his own goals and political power. Of course having blunted stated this here, human beings being what we are, I've probably shot myself in the 00C foot for continuing to do pull such things off *shrug*

Raye was once called the "silver tongued drow" by another, I would argue that there are several UD personalities that we have on this server that fit that description, two of which are male, melee builds and not in a house (Eldrik, Janzyr). imho there are others that would, or could, fit that description running about.

Attempting to solve issues and conflicts by beating it with a weapon (PvP) imho is pretty much the sophomoric surface approach to RP, as apposed to the more challenging situation the UD presents through the web of politics provided by following, instead of ignoring, the lore.

Edit: The above post pretty much sums up everthing I was trying too say perfectly.

I can only speak for myself here and Tal, but she does not get an easy ride, as cone fun little thing for me too rp out, Tal did not start off as a Yath she once upon a time was a Sartlin then a Draada then a Yathsargtlin and only recently has become a yathabban.

And upon become a yathabban, she did not get a golden you can now own everything none yath as you see fit card, but rather the constant testing and being given tasks by her Yathrin superiors, having to try and incress her influances and political abilitys with nagagating with folks who at firest before they got too know tal, well had the formentioned mindset on her making if a chllenge, but a fun one.

please do not see this as a attack or cirtiszem it really is not, but I feel that by you saying Yath have it easy is akin too me turning around and saying, your making all of this up.

its not true, for both sides, I can tell you however at least from my expirence on tal, Yathabban do not get a easy ride at all, and most of the things Tal has, she had too claw at, bribe, make deals, backstab her sisters horribley, or do some things that would make most folks perk an eyebrow too get.

just like you can tell me how hard none yath can get, I still think talking with each other oocly is the best corse of action and will make things more fun. um, hope this came over the way I intended it too.

It's because I don't play a Drow that I'm offering other solutions, Jeremor. I know that politics would be the best way to work in that setting because I'm not focused on PvP in there. Gildren's pointed out how much better a political attack would be than simple deaths.

I can appreciate that this is a hot button for you but you're really coming across as hostile when you don't need to be. I'm pointing out that all of your posts are just negative and saying you can't do anything. You're even saying you can't work with other players. It's very frustrating to read that and have any input immediately nay-sayed with absolutes. Other Drow players are likely going to take it personally that their characters are making everything "impossible." The only way to get anything done is to speak more positively instead of just pointing out problems. :\

So, point-blank and direct: Jeremor, what would be a solution to the problem you see? Doesn't matter if it's super-complicated or incredibly easy. I honestly JUST want to know what could fix what's wrong.

Wakefield wrote:

ObsidianRaven pretty much covered it. Work WITH other players OOCly to move things along. If they refuse and force others to do things, speak to the DMs privately to see if it's an issue which needs to be corrected.

Just because one drow, any drow, wants to get rid of any other drow doesn't mean they can.
That's beyond unfair to whoever the victim is.
I'm not saying people cant disappear, because they can, do, and should.
I'm saying when your heavily thought out plans fail miserably for perfectly legitimate reasons. (There is no way 5 yathabbens can take a yath'tellar in combat, i dare you to prove me wrong) you can't just complain to a DM that your plans fail and expect him to be responsible to do anything about it. This isnt kindergarten, not everyone can grow up to be president.

Now if four house masters got together to take out a yathrin, that's a whole different story.

@Jeremor, I completely agree with you there. And would like to add that i really like surface elf personas, but im not about to drop into a fragile, complex, and heated argument about surface elf culture to say something that belongs in an elf 101 page and insult all those who have previously been arguing.

I agree, LoudDave. If you legitimately fail in your plans, you pay the price for trying to carry them out and not succeeding. I was suggesting you bring in a DM only if the player is godmoding or if the players can't manage a solution between themselves.

I think the issue with Masters has much to do with the simple fact that there are not many underlings. Chakos has like 3, but the chances of them being on at the same time are slim. So Chakos typically does not get to command his underlings and flex his direct political muscle very often. Other masters in Zau'Afin have it even worse. Za'nara currently has one underling, Naradril has one as well. Dargoth has none (openly).

In a relative comparison, a Yathrin and especially a Yath'tellar has way more followers that are not limited by class at a given time IG. So in terms of political might and influence, the Qu'ellar master's is relatively smaller than the the Yath's in the actual Game (not lore but in our setting).

To say the Qu'ellar masters of Zau'Afin have no influence is a big understatement though. All the Zau'Afin masters have influenced Ginthrae's decision making at one time or another. Other times I am sure it has been like talking to a wall. To say it is impossible though is an understatement.

Ginthrae holds her masters on high regard, she would not leave them in their positions if she did not. She does take their advice and if she does not act on it in the way they feel she should, it does not mean she did not take their words to account. In short the right words in her ear will often maneuver her as you wish most of the time.

I am pretty sure Talasprina is similar in her outlook and approach. Ala is a little different since she sits on the boarder between independence and house Yath'tellar. Ala's job is more in line with giving spiritual counsel rather than receiving counsel. This does not mean Ala will not take advice from the Quel'Saruk or other masters into her reasoning though. I have seen her defer before.

Yes I agree god emotes and metagaming, are some of my pet-peeves and should be reported.
But that's basic server knowledge that everyone should already know.

What do you mean "cant manage a solution"? Let's have an example Wakefield.

Wakefield wrote:

I don't play a Drow

@Jeremor, My yath doesn't pull the heretic card to get rid of people, I think its kind of a low blow for obvious reasons. As a drow it shouldn't be off the table, but as a human with a bit of decency i consider it off the table. In order for her to consider someone a heretic she would need evidence, real evidence, (((someone telling her + ooc screen shots/ offical DM nod ))

Without evidence it would go somthing like:
sepis - "Do dos worship malla lolth?"
drow - "Xas"
sepis - "bweal"
done
(((Thats the short version)))
((( I dont want to go back to the times heresy was used as a football and abused )))

LoudDave wrote:

Yes I agree god emotes and metagaming, are some of my pet-peeves and should be reported.
But that's basic server knowledge that everyone should already know.

What do you mean "cant manage a solution"? Let's have an example Wakefield.

Wakefield wrote:

I don't play a Drow

Yes, I do not play a Drow. That doesn't render me incapable of understanding problems or offering help. I'm not knee-deep in Drow lore or the power-plays on the server, and that keep me objective. I don't take sides and I don't have a preference of "winner" in any of this.

When I said you "can't manage a solution," I was talking about the players being unable to reach an agreement between themselves. Doesn't matter WHAT the agreement turns out to be- a male wizard backhanding a female cleric who learns she's spoken out of turn or the male being mocked and pushed around by the lady when he winds up being wrong. I'm saying you take it briefly OOC, have a friendly chat, get an understanding of where you're both coming from, and AGREE to play TOGETHER. That's all. Cite lore and rules if you need to, but work together.

If you're unable to do that, then you need some third party to help. You would do best to call in a DM to mediate the dispute and make a decision. Everyone's an adult here, so I really would like to see some kind of ability to at least grudgingly get along even through the character conflicts. I asked Jeremor for a specific solution to the problem he sees and would pose that same request to any of the Drow players who agree with there being an issue. You NEED to all find a middle ground to work off of. If you're not able to do that, then threads like these aren't going to do more than point fingers, flare tempers and probably have people quitting because they're not getting their way.

It doesn't matter if you've been here two days or two years- if there's a problem and you can offer a solution, that's a step in the right direction.

I know I have been pushing Yath... but please understand I am in the same boat as every other male in the UD. Just because I have Yath in my title really means nothing. As I have said before Yath'sargtlin is no different than saying Favorite Rothe to the Yath. I have overstepped what the Yath an Quellar felt I should be able to do and I have been banished as well from camp... granted not as long as some.

I really am not kidding so I do understand fustrations.

I have had to deal with the same as everyone else and yes I have been fustrated to no end with how the Yath and for that fact any Female can do to a Male in the UD. But I have accepted that as part of the Lore of a Lolthite camp... it may not work for everyone since it is very hard most days and we have a good group of Yath and Female toons but they do and will continue to hold the majority of power with in our world and if you are looking for more political pull then as Raye has posted there are ways to have some power and it is a constant cultivation and playing one side off on the other. And yes it takes very little to ruin what could literally be weeks of RP sometimes but that is sometimes the way of things. It is not an easy thing to deal with hence why I mentioned if we want to depart from lore or look at playing a City like the one ran by Mages instead of the Yath which can align with Lore since one such exists then that is different... but we would then need to change the Lore on DB to be able to do that since for as long as I can remeber being on this server DB it has been a Lolthite camp that is run by for the most part the Yath.

The plight of the Male Drow has been something that has been discussed for a very long time and unfortunately I have not seen anyway to improve short of shifting the power base and the Jaluks rise up in force and take power... which would be fun RP if you ask me.

Shadow

Wow.
You just assume we don't communicate ooc, agree on anything, or have any grasp on what the DM's are here for.
This is outrageous.
Are you going to tell me how many sides a d20 has next?

Wakefield wrote:

Yes, I do not play a Drow

This is why your original suggestion to "frame someone as a heretic" was taken with such resoundingly bad responses. This business of tossing about the label heretic in the past has led to seriously bad situations. Your "suggestion" is a heavy and far step backwards. If you played a Drow you would know this, and you would not have suggested it.
So when your suggestion was denied it would have been appropriate for you to read up on lore or play a drow for at least 1 day, and then pose another suggestion, rather then get into a forum debate about how we don't have the basic human skills of communication.

Wakefield wrote:

Yes, I do not play a Drow