Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

How is a building going to fix anything? I don't understand how a building fixes RP. Please tell me how this will fix the Queller vs house debate. I am honesty lost in why people keep saying this.

I have not been refereing to a building.

I am refering to a ruling body that is seperate from the House (quellar) as I think I have posted in this thread from Lore reference material that there is in fact a Church of Lolth that does hold power and is not part of the Quellars. And yes before you say anything it does say in many places that some of the most powerful Matrons are also a Priestess of Lolth and can wield the power of both Church and House to further their grip on power.

Having a building or Church would be like any Quellar having a house a place for those entities that see being part of the Yath more important than that of being part of a Quellar a place to plot and such with out the interference of the Quellars. A place for the RP of the Church to happen and yes it could very well help the RP.

Shadow

Shadowwolf wrote:

Yes Jeremor I did... funny thing is I am not advocating that the Quellars have no power.. What I am saying is the Yath is an institution on its own.. unlike what you have been saying and that is:

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Qu'ellar is everything in Drow roleplay

Which I am pointing out is wrong. It is a component of Drow RP ... the basis of our RP is based on 3 pillars in the community Church, House and Military.

As each time I have also stated that in every Drow City it can be a different power base and if it is decided that the Houses hold that power here in DB then great... but to give it a blanket statement and say it is lore ... well I think the lore I have posted can show that no that is not the case.

Shadow

In Drow roleplay it is everything, for a majority of characters you see running around. My character Chakos has absolutely no real ties to the Yath. If you removed the Yath altogether, I could still play him easily. Rogues, warriors, wizards, all of those basic archetypes are still completely viable without any organized temple. Even clerics are perfectly viable to play, being the leaders of these Quellars, without a centralized temple like we're trying to create... the evidence for this should be obvious, since we've been experiencing it the entire time we've been down here.

Without quellar roleplay, there is no reason to be anything but a cleric. Absolutely no reason. The rest of us might as well all be playing slave characters.

Your Yath is an offshoot. It helps divine casters, and that's it. Frankly, I already feel like the Yath has PLENTY of stuff they can do(being the most powerful characters in our underdark easily) and it's the rest of us that need to be focused on having our jobs given back to us, but we've switched into "Yath yath yath everybody fix the yath" mode... so I guess I'll just give up on that opinion.

This was my point. I didn't say it was just lore, I said roleplay. As in, how do we make an underdark that is a fun atmosphere that allows maximum creativity for character concepts. Do we need to argue about this anymore or can we at least agree about that?

Look I am not trying to rain down on any ones fun here.

There is a warning when making a Drow about Lolthites and such... if the style of RP is not to your liking then are we suggesting to change the lore because if that is what is being advocated here then I will refrain from the discussion and allow you to build what ever your version of the UD is.

Comments like this:

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If you removed the Yath altogether, I could still play him easily. Rogues, warriors, wizards, all of those basic archetypes are still completely viable without any organized temple

Means to me you are not interested in playing a Lore based RP. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that I just want to be clear ... are we discussing Lore base RP of Drow or a Hybrid that you feel will be more fun for players to play.

Again do not read more into my statement other than I would really like to understand I am truly trying to help. That is why I have been posting articles right out of the Drow of the Underdark.

Shadow

A very good point, Jer.

To me it's a little deeper than weather the church is above the house, or the house is above the church, that is a chicken and egg argument. You can not have one with out the other. The three tear system both I and Shadow have sited. I honestly don't even really have issue with a house Yath holding church above house. This is fine.

My issue is when it comes down to technical application, things get screwy and the house's are reduced to nothing and with independents. The reason, because I have experienced it here. Let's say all of the house Yath hold Yath above Qu'ellar. What happens to the houses?

Should a shebali Yath'tellar be able to simply walk into Qu'ellar Zau'Afin and start barking orders?

If you have a Qu'ellar Velg'larn and a shebali Yath'tellar and a noble Yath'tellar, from the same house, or not, that both give conflicting orders who should they follow?

If a Matron who is Yath'tellar, can be out ranked by a Shebali Yath'tellar? Out maneuvered maybe, but overwritten?

What about a Shebali Yath'tellar and Il'haress who is non Yath, or simply Yathrin?
What is to stop her from simply taking over the house?
The yathrin, even the non Yath must obey...right?
If this is so, how is it possible that houses like this have existed in canon?

My serious issue, and OOC fear is if the church is givien to much power, it will marginalize the houses, reducing them to nothing. Changing the state of our RP to a one house system rather than 2. Some people have spoken about the possibility of a third house and have said this would be difficult if there were nobility requirements on Yath. Now I understand that shebali Yath do exist, but look at this reverse aspect.

When the Yath is entirely separate, and an un housed Yath has more power than a housed one of equal rank. Instead of a system that has two houses and room for more, you get a single giant house, that is headed by an Ulath'tellar. An Ulath'tellar that we have by majority, chosen to be DM controlled. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find this possibility to be simply, unacceptable.

This system must be based on the pillars of power, and balanced as only the chaos of quantum theory can balance. The houses, the church, and the military

(which are controlled by the houses, except in times of war. Keep in mind the Quel'Saruken and their underlings make up the miliatary. It is they who run the show at a time of war. The Yath kind of supervises. The Yath is still in control, but it is the Quel'Saruken that are their generals.).

The nobles must hold power over the commoners. The system will not work, if it is wrongly balanced either way and if we are going to allow Shebali Yath, we must balance it by giving them a lower status than nobles of equal rank.

Do I believe a Shebali should be able to rise up in power to make even the great houses tremble? Of course I do. This must be done through RP though, not through simple application of rank or and idea that if you are housed you are simply below the Shebali "Temple" Yath because they are part of the temple and not a house.

@Shadow.
I think Jer's point is very similar to mine. He disagrees with you, that does not mean because his view of things is different than yours, that he does not want to conduct Lolthian RP. If he didn't he wouldn't be posting here, he would be off playing a surface char.
His point is, almost everyone who is not a cleric, plays in the house. The common Wizard's or warrior's path to power in Drow RP is through the houses. If you reduce the houses to nothing, you get no avenues of RP for these other characters.
Now I don't necessarily agree with that. I think you end up with one Giant house. Everyone still plays how they are, but house affiliations become meaningless and everyone serves a group of priestesses calling them the Yath. One house.

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Some people have spoken about the possibility of a third house and have said this would be difficult if there were nobility requirements on Yath.

To clarify, a noble house is a noble family. Drow society is not the land of opportunity where houses rise from the ashes of the common folk. This can happen, but it is very, very, very, very, rare. Drow houses are formed by other drow houses. Noble families splitting off and making new families similar to real life families. A third house has a better chance of forming if the houses are not marginalized by independents.

This has already happened.

Can you name even 5 characters that are political powerful that are not priest? Can you even name 3? What about 1? Can we name 1 non yath character that seems to have a goodly amount of political power, and not just in their own house?

I would love to see non yath drow have a purpose but I have been waiting for about 9 months and I have yet to see it.

Well before the whole yath'abbens are invinvible mentality the UD picked up thanks to idk why, We had Nil'ka (spelling) of zau'affin, ummm Kira and Sabannna ( i would say idk id that was shared ) and now that the DM plots involve crazy magics, arcane spell casters input is pretty darn vital, no?

I mean the yath by nature and theory are the most political.

This isnt the Drow civil rights movement. just because there isnt an amazing powerful person in every field doenst mean we should go hunt one down and revere him/her politically.

I hate to oversimplify here, but Nobles are, well, nobility. Shebali are commoners. How would the existence of a religious structure suddenly invert the fact that Nobility > Commoners by definition?

Whilst I'm one of the ones who does think we need more Houses to form, be that from new characters banding together or breakaway factions from current groups, I think giving non-Noble church members more power than Noble ones will, along with being counter-intuitive, be counterproductive to that because it will provide no benefit to them to do so.

Note: I don't think there has to be a FIRM Noble-outranks-same-rank-shebali priest necessarily. The noble yath has more power simply because her House will back her. This in and of itself is WHY Houses are important to Yath.

This statement is interesting:

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@Shadow.
I think Jer's point is very similar to mine. He disagrees with you, that does not mean because his view of things is different than yours, that he does not want to conduct Lolthian RP. If he didn't he wouldn't be posting here, he would be off playing a surface char.
His point is, almost everyone who is not a cleric, plays in the house. The common Wizard's or warrior's path to power in Drow RP is through the houses. If you reduce the houses to nothing, you get no avenues of RP for these other characters.
Now I don't necessarily agree with that. I think you end up with one Giant house. Everyone still plays how they are, but house affiliations become meaningless and everyone serves a group of priestesses calling them the Yath. One house.

How is what is being suggested reduce the houses to nothing. I see this seems to be a big issue to the houses if the Church is seperate from them. You are correct that for other players the only way they can gain power is within their Quellars but again how does having the Church marginalize this. That would not change and as you have stated before Yath members can ask any person to do something and if it does not conflict with orders of their Secular they should do so. . You made mention throughout of Idependant Yath.. currently the only Independant Yath I have seen are Yath'abban and with the current changes their power will decrease with the new Rankings. Yathrin and above all currently belong to a Quellar so we currently do serve a group of Priestess except some belong to one Quellar or the other so we are already there.

It is not the issue of Church vs Quellar it is an issue of what interaction the Church should have in a Quellar and vice versa. Should Yath'tallar and such be able to order around Quellar members not of their House? Would this then be the way you address the issue or fear of Yath. Yath would talk with other House Yath in regards to what needs to happen and then those Yath would talk with their Ilharess (if their Ilharess did not happen to be a Yath) and the Ilharess would iether say yes my House will do this or no my House will not do this. If she says no the Yath convene and decide what actions should happen to an Ilharess who does not comply with the Yaths wishes. Kings back in the day who disobeyd the Church could find themselves excumminicated ... they are still kings but lost the backing of the Church. We are not talking about calling the House Heretic but perhaps something that simulates Political intrigue or such like. This gives the House the Atomony you talk about but still gives the Church the Political strength that it should have.

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I mean the yath by nature and theory are the most political.

I disagree with this completely. Why would yath be the most political? They have authority already... This is where your mages and other classes come into play. The problem is on this server they are not used because every single yath seems to know magical theory even though they are not wizards... There is no rp geared toward bringing these toons into play. "You high level toons hang out if us low level yath have to kill bad guys. Other then that.... Yeah... no.. go sit over there".

It is not about "civil rights" it is about allowing other toons to do things to. Not just sit down and shut up in events. Or.. "This is an issue for the yath." (see all the priest go into a room and leave everyone else just standing there)

I would love to see the yath "fixed" but Jer is right. IF the yath is all there is to the UD then why are the rest of us even here? Can we all get rebuilds so we can roll priest?

//a priestess that does not know who not to mess with ends up like the former Dabel'kith Ilharess pretty much works for any drow really. No matter how powerful you are; you can't defeat an army of drow that comes get you off your throne, this likely applies even for the head of the church. (this is just my opinion and experience in the matter)

Fuzzie...

I agree with your statement.

But I do not think the issue is Quellar or Yath in regards to what you described but with RP in general. When you say fix the Yath.. what changes would you think would be required to fix the issue you described. I am pretty sure there are some out there that have had Ilharns whisper to them as well as others.. granted it is usually behind the scenes but I can assure you it has happened.

Shadow

Not entirely true. Mi for one has never stated she knows magical theory, infact theres been many many times she's recieved something magic related and sent the person to go talk to raye as he may be able to understand what it is better. There was an event involving some magical effect in the maze where she sent someone to go search out raye to come examine it.
I'm not sure about what happens with other yathrin but Mi has always generally deferred to the relevant quellar masters advice regarding a matter that is outside of her expertise.
Generally I do try to keep as many people involved in things as possible where it makes sense to do so but there will be some matters that do have to be classed as matters of the yath and do have to be dealt with away from everyone else as doesnt make sense to announce it.

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Why would yath be the most political?

Hehe, that is the thing with the church. The Yath compete with each others. Just as the house members do. Every Yath is trying outmanuver, oursmart, outthink, out kill, the Yath next to her.

Fuzzie do bring up a good point to think over. Let for a moment put lore aside and think on the problems that been raised in the past. Just know what i am gonna say now is not a pointing finger at anyone, been too long since i was in UD with May to even be able to lol. Still let put lore to the side just for the moment as i say this.

One problem is and always had been that Yath had too much focus. I will say this in not insulting manner but to give a clear point. The Camp had before been nothing but a yath playground. Any non yath had nothing to say, nothing to do unless they was ordered by yath. Even Illharess of houses was pretty much pushed about in some manner. House members often got pinched between the house and yath ordering. Often a high ranking mage was even treated as a plaything for the yath who went to torture.

In a meaning the entire purpose of house structure was not there often. The purpose is obtain influence and band together, the benefit should be clear under normal ideas. To become noble and part of a house mean protection from outside influence such as lower yath. By the norms the yath should not start to mess randomly with high ranking house member and risk pissing off a entire house.

What you people really need is to find a rp structure of all this that give room and a rather clear idea of when a yath can interfere with a house and when they cant. There is no perma death so it further make things odd when we say Drow RP. As a non Yath you just cant really plot a back stab in the hidden and get rid of a yath who is upset to act against you. Not to mention this is not a city with 50.000 actively Drow players to get suspicious on. It a server with maybe about 20 Drow to choice from.

Axe did alot of good things but the old focus on yath power and staring at every single lore as law just dont work in a server mind when we say Drow. You need to think in a smaller scale and remember we are only a certain number of people, it not a self sufficient city with thousands of people to blame and hide among.

Therefore it bit important everyone has something to do and aim for. Personally i feel the Chruch should have its niche and its purpose and the Houses should have it own. It should not mix so the yath can get inside influence of a house in the large scale and interfere with the house on every turn. The same time the house should not ignore the yath and Lloth's command.

I had not been thinking that much on things since obviously i am not part of the UD but a fast idea i purpose is like this:

Very top priestess, likely npc ruled so the dm can guide you all better.

1 yath'taller position in one house only, this still allow the church to interact with the house and the priestess will advice and guide the Ilharess in the matter of Lloth.

Yath outside the house will have to address the Illharess and the house Yath'taller if there is a problem with a house member. The Illharess can then be in some charge of whatever punishment given if any was needed. This will remove the idea that a outside Yath just walk up and start torture a high ranking house member out of boredom ..so to speak.

The church become it own entity much like a house would who oversee the training of newly priestess and judge them. They can with the help of the top priestess also act as the leader of the Drow if needed and try to work with the houses in the more global events, like Mearmydria as example. This also give purpose to any non yath who have other skills, like mages and assasins. By having the Church working with the houses their illharess can still give order and be bit in control rather then mage A sudden get ordered by a outside Yath.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

Quote :

I mean the yath by nature and theory are the most political.

I disagree with this completely. Why would yath be the most political? They have authority already... This is where your mages and other classes come into play. The problem is on this server they are not used because every single yath seems to know magical theory even though they are not wizards... There is no rp geared toward bringing these toons into play. "You high level toons hang out if us low level yath have to kill bad guys. Other then that.... Yeah... no.. go sit over there".

We really agree here. They have the authority. you said it.

[quote="FuzzieBunny"]

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It is not about "civil rights" it is about allowing other toons to do things to. Not just sit down and shut up in events. Or.. "This is an issue for the yath." (see all the priest go into a room and leave everyone else just standing there)

I would love to see the yath "fixed" but Jer is right. IF the yath is all there is to the UD then why are the rest of us even here? Can we all get rebuilds so we can roll priest?

It depends on the event. just because someone doesn't have a key pieces of information or something pivotal to a main plot densest mean there is nothing for them to do. And if there is an event that isnt tailored to them, its their responsibility to continue to rp. I cant tell you how many events Ive been to as Narasa'lad and have only had the responsibility of standing around guarding the yath. but that was the old days before mindflayer and all his mini-plots and whatnot (which is AWESOME of him/her)
Actually the main plot has HUGE opportunities for non yath rp.
The house weaponsmastes should be drawing up the battle plans and tactics and what not and trying to convince they ilharessen they are sound.
The mages should be working tirelessly on that harrows gem thing.
Emm idk what the assassins are supposed to do lol, try to find the weak points on a dead fire giant?(anatomy)
Warlocks can help the wizards.
And yes often as a male you sit down and don't bother the Ilharesses as they are locked in the dance of words.
This does not mean you have to shut up or do nothing. But i don't think it would be wise to interrupt them often.
Again you should be doing something appropriate to your position/+efforts. A day one scientist doesnt find a cure for cancer, and low level sarglithilan may not have input on the battle tactics, but instructing them on it can be rp'd

The yath are not the only characters in the UD, they're just the most important in the eyes of they yath. it is the toons' decision to follow the mainstream or not.
The UD Drow are known for assassins, wizards, fighters(Drizit) and yath, id have to say those are the four stereotypes in my mind.

______
Also imagine if everyone actually did roll priests. yathabbens would be the new initiates and males, yathrin would be the new house masters, and yathtellar would be the new yath. It would be the same as it is now except eventually wed all be yathtellars. and how can you have a high priestess if you have no regular priestess. youve lost your referance point.

There are some VERY good ideas here, but I find the major part is people are worried about seats of power or who would be able to override who.


Now in reading this (Since I've been staying out of it, you guys are the vets.) you all were kind of waiting for a change, for that boost to bring you all together. But in a sense really only looked out for your own PCs.


Now I'm not saying this is wrong, as it's not. We are Drow, we come first and those we are allied with second.


Just have to remember that we're all Lawful people trying to play Chaotic individuals and trying to co-exist.

Now I want to go back to this :

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In a meaning the entire purpose of house structure was not there often. The purpose is obtain influence and band together, the benefit should be clear under normal ideas. To become noble and part of a house mean protection from outside influence such as lower yath. By the norms the yath should not start to mess randomly with high ranking house member and risk pissing off a entire house.

This is so much truth.


So if Yathabban A decides to mess with Weaponmaster B, and pisses off WM B's House, then of course we would presume Yathabban A's house would band together?

But where is the logic in that? If we're discussing Drow power-play, which it is, Yathabban A has to look at how it affects their SOCIAL STATUS. If someone pulled a wrong move, one would suspect that by punishing and making an example of their own house member, to even the flow and to bring that Neutral-Median back between the two houses would be the logical choice.

No two houses would want to openly wage war over each other over someone overextending their bounderies when they should CLEARLY be afraid of someone who is stronger than them.


So when one of the Dabel'kith Yath/Sartglin/Whatever tries to badger Nanga, guess what Demo'loth does, as his active duty to protect her, for his own Reasons being the Zau'Afin Qu'ellar, Being her Bodyguard and being her allie, Yes he will draw blade.

Now after seeing someone who can most likely Beat you down draw blade on you, you have two options to think.

A) You can be snotty and pull a move and attempt to harm either participant, but guess what's going to happen? You are going to blow the situation up and that is going to affect how OTHERS look at you in the future. WHERE IS THAT FEAR OR CAUTION OVER THE UNKNOWN.

B) You can reach a median, Wow this guy just pulled a blade on me. It looks like his Priorities suddenly just overrode mine. How can I either respectfully walk away or chastise her with words instead risking my life/Station. As it's been said, If a Female dies to a Male, she obviously couldn't back her words. She would be looked down upon and would require to ask for aid or favors from others, which would make people look further down on her.



Because yes, Demo'loth will kill you or die trying, as it is his purpose and the part he plays.


Yath are not the only people there, there is a lot of attention around them, more than its needed.

But everyone has a part to play.

Weaponmasters.

Assassins/Intel gatherers.

The Sargtlin

The Initiates.


Stop throwing in on "Oh why we can't do this because of this" and realize "Oh hey, for us to HAVE FUN while enjoying the UD, maybe we need to come to an OOC median to get this stuff handled."


As previously stated, No it's not going to be by the book no matter how hard we try and no it's not like Novels, because those Novels are written from THAT PERSONS perspective (That being the Author/Protagonist)



- S

Xeneize wrote:

//a priestess that does not know who not to mess with ends up like the former Dabel'kith Ilharess pretty much works for any drow really. No matter how powerful you are; you can't defeat an army of drow that comes get you off your throne, this likely applies even for the head of the church. (this is just my opinion and experience in the matter)

That's a gross misrepresentation of events.
There was a vote within the house masters, if it would pass the challenger would have an opportunity to basically challenge the Ilharess to a duel.
The vote passed. the duel was aloud.
The Old ilharess lost.
There was no "army of drow"

That was one very long battle to watch Lidtichie and Lilith.

People are not making up random crap just to be OOCly important in the UD. I almost quit myself when the bs happened the first and the second time. I stayed because I had a core group that I really enjoyed playing with. I don't have to RP in camp at all. I spent weeks basicly doing my own thing. I was asked repeatedly to do RP in camp. So I am and I am trying to help make it a place people want to RP in. Not the empty waste land it was. So don't tell me we are all in this for ourselves. I don't play a priest so because I want things to be fun and actually want others to stay around I am looking out for ONLY me.

this is just silly.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

People are not making up random crap just to be OOCly important in the UD. I almost quit myself when the bs happened the first and the second time. I stayed because I had a core group that I really enjoyed playing with. I don't have to RP in camp at all. I spent weeks basicly doing my own thing. I was asked repeatedly to do RP in camp. So I am and I am trying to help make it a place people want to RP in. Not the empty waste land it was. So don't tell me we are all in this for ourselves. I don't play a priest so because I want things to be fun and actually want others to stay around I am looking out for ONLY me.

this is just silly.

I worded myself wrong and meant something else, I apologize if I came off hostile. I'll stay out of the UD debate.

Sorry again.

Selvetarm dahling dont worry about it.

I am sure Mindflayer and the rest of the staff and for that fact any of the UD'ers would prefer if people did not stay quiet. We all have opinions and text is not the best forum to have discussion since it can be taken in out of context sometimes. But staying quiet does not help and frankly your point of view as anyones on this thread is valid. Perhaps you may not have been here as long as some but it does not take away your point of view and with out input from all fractions then we will continually miss the mark in making the UD a fun place for all to play while trying to remain as close to lore this will allow us to.

In the end the Staff will need to make some decisions and then we will abide by those descisions but if we dont speak out then we can not be heard.

I would say to everyone though that we are all trying to accomplish the same thing and not to take anything posted as an attack on ones RP or player.

Shadow

I am not referring to just me here but I can only speak for me if that makes sense. No one has to play in camp. They have their Houses to go to where they could basically justdo as they please. If everyone just decides that everyone else is just trying to get things done for only themselves then all these posts are pointless. Why even bother any more? At some point we have either say "hey, maybe there is something here". Or just dismiss things as selfish and stop paying attention.

I don't actually think this is about RP judging at all. I get a ton of that so it is fine. I care about the attitude that seems more inclined to just dismiss everyone as being selfish. Because that means most of us have just wasted our time here.

_Selvetarm_ wrote:

I'll stay out of the UD debate.

Really, please don't, the whole point of this exercise is so the DMs can get a feel for how everyone feels and how everyone wants the UD to be, in order to inform their decisions.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

I don't actually think this is about RP judging at all. I get a ton of that so it is fine. I care about the attitude that seems more inclined to just dismiss everyone as being selfish. Because that means most of us have just wasted our time here.

Thing is, he's right. The Yath players are concerned primarily with how the Yath will now function, the un-Housed Yath-affiliates are trying to make sure they don't end up accidentally shoved under the carpet by not being factored into the New Drow Order, and the non-Yath players (myself included) are trying to make sure the House-based political system - and thus our characters - remain relevant. There's nothing wrong with this, it's how these debates go.

I can certainly make assumptions about how Yath function, interact, feel to play. But they are just that, assumptions. The Yath players know, and that's what they're bringing to the table. I know how it works/feels to play a non-Yath House affiliate and I bring that. Everyone 'fights their corner' to a certain extent, and it makes sure no-one gets forgotten, as long as they speak up.

I really don't think the statement in question here was intended as a personal attack on any one or several members of the UD playerbase.