Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

FuzzieBunny wrote:

I guess my question is why would a yath'stagalin have any authority outside of the temple? He is not a priest and will never be one. He is a powerful warrior and disrespecting him could piss off the High priest he belongs to but other then that... What authority outside of a temple, would he be accorded? If he is given a command by the high priest then clearly he can has something to work with. But if he is not a noble or a priest...

Because you have to remember, this Male is a direct serving of the Church of Lolth in a female dominated Society. He's the best of the best OR the Ideal image of a Jaluk, an unnerved servant to the Yath above all else. It is in his benefit that he protects the Yath and its clergy while answering to them while being Expected to make the right choices in a given situation.

I think we are looking to deep onto this. It is a temple guard. He has a chain of command. He obeys the high priestess of his temple first. His duty is to his temple or his 'post'. After that he takes orders from the other yath in order of rank provided they don't detract from his main duty and the orders of the high priest of his temple.

If his high priest has him question house master on some matter then he first talks to their matron and tells her. Then he moves on to the house masters. He tells them where is orders come from. Then, with the authority of the church, the blessing of the matron, he F's some house masters up if need be.

This is where a temple warrior gets his power.

In my view he would obey the Unhoused Yath'tallar...noble or not she is Yath'tallar and loyal to the Church more than Que'llar. Again to much importance is placed on the que'llar title. Church above Que'llar in my opinion.

Example: Level one new player to the UD joins que'llar on second day of making new drow. Suddenly that character is Noble because he/she swear oath to a Ilharess? Does a simple que'llar title make a character noble?

Again more back door entrys to twist complicated Drow lore. My brain hurts

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In my view he would obey the Unhoused Yath'tallar...noble or not she is Yath'tallar and loyal to the Church more than Que'llar. Again to much importance is placed on the que'llar title. Church above Que'llar in my opinion.

This marginalizes the house Yath's though and says that a Noble Drow is less than a Shebali drow, simply do to church affiliation. This is totally incorrect. Shebali are nothing to the Nobles. If this is your view, then what is the purpose in the houses?

To drow, status is the be all end all. Your argument states that a shebali priestess has more status than a noble one.

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Example: Level one new player to the UD joins que'llar on second day of making new drow. Suddenly that character is Noble because he/she swear oath to a Ilharess? Does a simple que'llar title make a character noble?

Depends on the house, as you well know. In Zau'Afin the answer is no. An initiate is not Zau'Afin until blooded.

As a side note:
We have spoken a lot here about how the Yath is above the Qu'ellaren. This is incorrect. The Yath IS of the Qu'ellaren. Lolth is above the Qu'ellaren.

If you were to compare the Yath to congress. Unhoused Yath would be like the House of Reps, the housed Yath will be like the Senators. Both are members of Congress. The senate is the upper house, the senators serve longer terms so they can develop more statesmen like credentials. They tend to have more prestige, and are held in higher regard.
Housed and un housed Yath I think should be similar.

Qu'ellar is everything in Drow roleplay, I really don't like this idea some of us are moving toward to completely marginalize it.

If being in a Quellar actually becomes a DISADVANTAGE to a Yath on our server(Which it would be, going by Vilesinger's sentiments above on Unhoused versus House), I feel like we've completely screwed something up. Not just a little bit either, but screwed up badly. We've instantaneously made Qu'ellars "Bad" somehow.

Just because a female isn't in a house doesn't mean her every word is automatically somehow for the good of the church. I cannot figure out why people think this. It means she's even MORE selfish, because she's only looking after herself, personally. She is grabbing power for only her, using a Yath position with no Ilharess or House Yath'tallar to moderate her. At least a housed Yath being selfish is gaining power for a whole Qu'ellar of loyal Lolth-fearing ilthyiiri, and doing it with the approval of at least their House's Yath'tallar.

If Lolth didn't like the Quellar system that governs just about every important Lolthite city, she would've destroyed it. She's a god, she can do that.

I use to think along those same lines Vile until I listened to the others and their arguments. Unhoused yaths if given power over the Quellers will utterly distroy the whole point of being in a house. There will be no purpose to being in any house. Every matron mother will be slapped down by the words of a shebali male because he works for an independent priest.

Please tell me how this is:

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Qu'ellar is everything in Drow roleplay

According to the Lore I have read:

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Drow Government and Rule
To say that the drow are governed by a matriarchal theocracy is both accurate and misleading. It is certainly true that the ruling members of drow society are the priestesses of Lolth and the matrons (and other matriarchs of the great houses), but calling them a “government” is a misnomer. Just as the drow are guided by tradition but have no formal law, they are overseen by these infl uential personages but have no formal government. A drow city has no duchess, reeve, or mayor; a drow nation has no empress or queen. A drow community is governed, so to speak, through the unsteady cooperation of its three most powerful institutions. The Church of Lolth is the most influential faction among the drow. The priestesses of this church interpret and disseminate the will of Lolth, conduct rites and rituals to honor the dark goddess, and technically have the authority to demand anything in her name. If the drow were to have a formal government, it would be made up of these individuals.

On a practical level, however, although the priestesses are indeed the social leaders of the drow, the church often lacks the power to take drastic action without the support of the great houses. Powerful matriarchs frequently hold power in both the church and a house—thus, what is self-interest for one must often be self-interest for the other. It is also important to understand that the church is not a monolithic entity, guided by a single voice or a single goal. It is made up of individual priestesses, all of whom are loyal to Lolth, but all of whom have the same drive to dominate the weak and
advance their own cause as any other drow. Thus, although a drow priestess can bring substantial might to bear against a
lone individual or small family who offends her, she cannot muster the resources of the church against an entire house,
unless the house has blatantly and conspicuously turned against Lolth as a whole. The houses of the drow hold the bulk of the community’s economic and military power in their hands. In some communities, a specifi c house might be a greater power even than the priestesses of Lolth, directing the activities of religious leaders with behind-the-scenes threats or open shows of force. The high priestess of a community might also be a highly ranked matriarch of a great house, using one to advance the schemes of the other. No single house has ever managed to rise to dominance across multiple drow cities, however, and few maintain a permanent position of authority even in individual communities. Each house is tied to the other houses in a complex web of treaties and conflicts, alliances and betrayals. Should one house become too powerful, others ally to bring it down Priestesses and house matriarchs hold great power over other drow— just so long as they have the might to enforce it (even while appearing, on the surface, to support them, playing both sides against the middle). Further, although the church usually lacks the power to single-handedly destroy a house, neither can a house afford to make an enemy of the church. Too much of the power in a community is held by Lolth’s priestesses, and a house that fails to work with those priestesses loses access to those channels of infl uence. Although such an occurrence is rare, the church can decree that a house has earned the disfavor of Lolth, essentially giving all other houses blanket permission and encouragement to openly turn against it. Some houses are strong enough to withstand even this sort of assault, which invariably leads to a dilution of the church’s position in the community. But more often, such a decree results in the house being weakened suffi ciently for another to rise and take its place. When one adds to this already volatile mix the constant scheming of house members against one another, in the hope of gaining higher status within the house, it’s quite understandable that no single house has ever managed to hold widespread power for long.

The military is the final drow institution that, in some communities, could be a governing body. Drow communities do not
have standing armies, since this would require a formal government. Multiple smaller forces make up the larger soldiery
of a drow city. These consist primarily of house-loyal militias, church soldiers, and independent mercenary companies. For
the most part, then, the “military” is simply the enforcement arm of a house or the church. In some rare instances, however— particularly in communities engaged in a constant war with a hostile power—the military takes on an authority of its own. Its generals, under the guise of protecting the community, usurp authority from the matriarchs who normally hold it. The house soldiers become the dominant members of the house, or at least carry suffi cient authority that the matriarchs and matrons cannot ignore their input. The army might even come to guide the Church of Lolth, directing priestesses in the defense of the city and in attacks on the enemy. The generals of differing factions, such as rival houses or a house and the church, have been known to cooperate behind the scenes, artificially extending or even creating military crises to wrest supremacy from the houses and the priesthood. It is worth noting that rank in a military unit is the only pathway male drow have to any position of authority, so they are the military offi cers most likely to attempt this sort of power grab.

Drow of the Underdark 3.5
So as you can see Drow RP is more complicated than your blanket statement of Quellars are everything... WE have made it that way currently on DB.

Shadow

So you see this thread could very well be an RP thread since the way the player Shadowwolf is seeing things we have the Quellars trying to position how they should be in power and those entities that are closer to the Church would rather see the Church of Lolth in power... now if only we had some Jaluk that thinks he could get power from a Milatry Coup....

Well that would be the best game of deception to be done in our world.



Shadow

*scratches her head* hmm I see your points.

I guess most of my point of view is directed at the upper levels of the Church. I do understand that the Church is OF the Yath not above it. But I often think of Que'llar Yath as on loan from the Church able to be called back when needed. Like the Pope example given earlier. The Church still holds the upper authority am I correct?

Like a Quel'faruk is sometimes trained at a wizard academy then appointed to a Noble Que'llar. I think this was common in Sshathamath?

@Lord Droke, going back a bit. If you took "yath" out of the singers prefix it would end alot of confusion.

@in general, yath'sarglithlin is a temple guard right? I see no reason for them to leave the temple, holy building, unless commanded to. Unless of course they are following a yathrin or higher.

@going back to that story about edric sabbana and nanga. Im not sure drow really "come to each others aid" when a high ranked drowess of noble blood is punishing a very low ranked disrespectful drow. If you go with this "tag in big bother" mentality, shouldnt every female and every Dabel'kith be obliged to come to the aid of sabanna who is being beaten by a male? and then what is every male and every yath going to come to the aid of edrik? Now we have the whole camp in an orc throwdown because a temple guard felt sorry for a prestiess in training being taught a lesson....

@also if we have yath'sarglithlins why do we need temple assasins? so we have a second way of killing heritics?

@if yath'sarglithilins dont belong in houses then neither do yath'tellars. becasue the argument is they have a obligation to church over house for yathsaglithilins. I see no difference for yath'tellar. and if this holds then i see no reason for any yath to be in a house really, after all their duty to church is superior .

We need to think of the actual church of Lolth, the building not the priest, as Washington DC. It is run by priestess of NOBLE HOUSES for the most part. They have put aside (wink,wink) Queller politics for the most part in order to run the main temple. These women are not shebali off the street for the most part. Sure, there might be a Shebali priest or two, but it would be very rare. They accepted this position to gain power.

These priestess run the temple. They politic as best they can but are not over the Quellers. Hell most of them should be from the Quellers. They are not any more holy then the housed priest. They all have the same training and were taught by the same teachers mostly. They just so happen to run the temple. They don't get extra authority. They don't get to tell matron mothers (who are actually blessed by Lolth per lore) what to do. They run the temple.... They have the all the same authority as any other yath of their rank.

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@in general, yath'sarglithlin is a temple guard right? I see no reason for them to leave the temple, holy building, unless commanded to. Unless of course they are following a yathrin or higher.

Because even holy warriors go to war... lot of holy wars have shown this through out history why would it be any different. You are singling out one Duty that the Yath'sargtlin may have and make it their only duty. There are many ways the Yath'sargtlin may protect the Yath ... going to this point:

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@also if we have yath'sarglithlins why do we need temple assasins? so we have a second way of killing heritics?

Who said it is only heretics we hunt? The church is in power as well and if they need to eliminate something that is hindering their plans.. we are Drow not everything is direct.

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@going back to that story about edric sabbana and nanga. Im not sure drow really "come to each others aid" when a high ranked drowess of noble blood is punishing a very low ranked disrespectful drow. If you go with this "tag in big bother" mentality, shouldnt every female and every Dabel'kith be obliged to come to the aid of sabanna who is being beaten by a male? and then what is every male and every yath going to come to the aid of edrik? Now we have the whole camp in an orc throwdown because a temple guard felt sorry for a prestiess in training being taught a lesson....

You missed the point .. it was never about big brother... it was about Non Yath vs Yath. Dabel'kith did come to Sabanna's defense and no charges of herecy were laid for their attack on me. And if a Female is beaten by a male.. I suppose then they did not have Malla Lolths favor. Being a female only gets you so much in our world.. anyone can hold power .. it is also about who can hold it.

Shadow

Also Edrik your "lore" post says that A yath'tellar can hold the position of yath'tellar and Ilharess at the same time. just want to point that out. because i like it.

Also it says houses can be more powerful than the temple if they have sufficiently infiltrated it.
So to say that the house is everything is as incorrect as saying the temple is everything.

@Nanga, The church is made of its members. Its members cannot be more powerful than its members. So to say the church is above the yath is like saying LoudDave is twice as tall as LoudDave.
Also Sshathamath is a city were the mages overthrew the yath, is it not?

Exactly ...

That is what I have been trying to point out is that the Church is a seperate Entity and should be treated as such.

If in game a House can come to controll such and weild it in a manner good for them .. currently though there are those that feel that the Quellars are the only thing and that the Yath is part of them while in actuallity it can be either way it all depends on how we RP.

That is the only point I have been trying to make is that we pigeon hole our RP by making one way or the other.. who is to say it is Quellars now but a Church could rise and take that.

I am an advocate of having both as institutions .. but the way of the thread has been going is that it is Quellars and the Yath is part of it and I do not agree ... it may be that way now.. but it is not the way it is.

Shadow

Jeremor wrote:

Qu'ellar is everything in Drow roleplay, I really don't like this idea some of us are moving toward to completely marginalize it.

If being in a Quellar actually becomes a DISADVANTAGE to a Yath on our server(Which it would be, going by Vilesinger's sentiments above on Unhoused versus House), I feel like we've completely screwed something up. Not just a little bit either, but screwed up badly. We've instantaneously made Qu'ellars "Bad" somehow.

Just because a female isn't in a house doesn't mean her every word is automatically somehow for the good of the church. I cannot figure out why people think this. It means she's even MORE selfish, because she's only looking after herself, personally. She is grabbing power for only her, using a Yath position with no Ilharess or House Yath'tallar to moderate her. At least a housed Yath being selfish is gaining power for a whole Qu'ellar of loyal Lolth-fearing ilthyiiri, and doing it with the approval of at least their House's Yath'tallar.

If Lolth didn't like the Quellar system that governs just about every important Lolthite city, she would've destroyed it. She's a god, she can do that.

Pretty sums up what I was about too type.

Shadowwolf wrote:

Because even holy warriors go to war... lot of holy wars have shown this through out history why would it be any different. You are singling out one Duty that the Yath'sargtlin may have and make it their only duty. There are many ways the Yath'sargtlin may protect the Yath ... going to this point:

So your saying the yath sarglithlin are more like the knights Templar then the swiss guard?

Shadowwolf wrote:

Who said it is only heretics we hunt? The church is in power as well and if they need to eliminate something that is hindering their plans.. we are Drow not everything is direct.

I didnt say it was only heritics you hunt.
Also you assume members of the church Align themselves with the church without mention personal agenda. Im not saying this is wrong or right but i would like it to be noted you are making this assumption.

Shadowwolf wrote:

You missed the point .. it was never about big brother... it was about Non Yath vs Yath. Dabel'kith did come to Sabanna's defense and no charges of herecy were laid for their attack on me. And if a Female is beaten by a male.. I suppose then they did not have Malla Lolths favor. Being a female only gets you so much in our world.. anyone can hold power .. it is also about who can hold it.
Shadow

right , of course. all parties in this situation were acting with "heresy".
Regardless I dont really see reason for all yath ranks to be viewed as equal.
Any drow has a different attitude when dealing with initiates compared to house masters, if they didn't i would expect some quite jealous/angry house masters.

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SERVANTS OF LOLTH
The drow’s priesthood is unusual—perhaps even unique—because it is not inherently any more faithful or zealous in its worship than the rest of the population. Almost all drow venerate Lolth, for they understand the consequences of failing
to do so. The Church of Lolth is less a haven for the society’s devout and more a reliable path to power. Short of working one’s way up through the ranks of a powerful house, the priesthood is the surest means of advancement in drow society. And although the priesthood rarely accepts drow of low station, it does so with more frequency than the houses do.

That said, the drow understand that the life of a priestess is not one of ease. The church not only conducts Lolth’s rites and rituals, it serves as the glue that holds together a society of scheming and bickering houses. Its members must be strong and merciless, and—perhaps hardest of all—must moderate their own schemes to consider the needs of the church as a whole. This doesn’t mean that drow priestesses do not plan to achieve their own ambitions at the expense of others; in fact, the priesthood is fi lled with more political infi ghting and secret deals than in any three houses put together. The priestesses understand, however, that although Lolth favors drow who advance their own power, she also wishes the race as a whole to thrive, and a priestess whose personal schemes threaten to weaken the community swiftly fi nds herself falling out of favor with both the goddess and her church.

Listen...

Both sides here have valid points. The Church does have it's own temple and staff however you are forgetting logistics here. In a large city where 40 noble houses, 100's of merchants, 75 merchant clans, and 1000's of poor Drow, and torist pay taxes, fines, and out right bribes the church can support independent priest and temples.

We are in a camp with 3 Noble Quellers. Just who is going to pay for all of these independent priest? Once the church starts acting like a Queller, making trade agreements, having it's own army, and gathing powerful 'advisors' as it was in the past, it looses it status as an independent. This is what all the others are trying to say.

To many times these independents call for hersey charges when they are opposed by power Drow. There is NO checks and balances for the independent church here. You basically saying because they are not in a Queller they know what Lolth wants more so if ANY house tries to check their ambition that is heresy cause they are more holy

That's a nice quote I find myself in agreement with.
I dont see how it relates, or how we've been disagreeing with it.

Because to an extent, the church is what has held this camp together amongst bickering and whatnot.

Who accepts more "drow of low station", now thats in interesting point. how would you measure that, or go about enforcing it. Also, I feel that is more up to the houses and church, how wide open their doors are. Are you going to tell people what guild (house x,house y,house z, or temple) they must join to preserve a balance?
I could see this makeing more sence if the UD was as populated as the entire surface. And we had say an everage of 40 UD drow on at a time. give or take. then maybe we could have a city, 4 houses, a powerful temple entity, and the fighters and mages guild.

FuzzieBunny wrote:

Listen...

Both sides here have valid points. The Church does have it's own temple and staff however you are forgetting logistics here. In a large city where 40 noble houses, 100's of merchants, 75 merchant clans, and 1000's of poor Drow, and torist pay taxes, fines, and out right bribes the church can support independent priest and temples.

We are in a camp with 3 Noble Quellers. Just who is going to pay for all of these independent priest? Once the church starts acting like a Queller, making trade agreements, having it's own army, and gathing powerful 'advisors' as it was in the past, it looses it status as an independent. This is what all the others are trying to say.

To many times these independents call for hersey charges when they are opposed by power Drow. There is NO checks and balances for the independent church here. You basically saying because they are not in a Queller they know what Lolth wants more so if ANY house tries to check their ambition that is heresy cause they are more holy

+100

Uhm... Shadowwolf, you did actually read the rest of that quote you picked, right? Besides the single sentence you bolded? Allow me to re-post it.

Quote :

Drow Government and Rule
To say that the drow are governed by a matriarchal theocracy is both accurate and misleading. It is certainly true that the ruling members of drow society are the priestesses of Lolth and the matrons (and other matriarchs of the great houses), but calling them a “government” is a misnomer. Just as the drow are guided by tradition but have no formal law, they are overseen by these infl uential personages but have no formal government. A drow city has no duchess, reeve, or mayor; a drow nation has no empress or queen. A drow community is governed, so to speak, through the unsteady cooperation of its three most powerful institutions. The Church of Lolth is the most influential faction among the drow. The priestesses of this church interpret and disseminate the will of Lolth, conduct rites and rituals to honor the dark goddess, and technically have the authority to demand anything in her name. If the drow were to have a formal government, it would be made up of these individuals.

On a practical level, however, although the priestesses are indeed the social leaders of the drow, the church often lacks the power to take drastic action without the support of the great houses. Powerful matriarchs frequently hold power in both the church and a house—thus, what is self-interest for one must often be self-interest for the other. It is also important to understand that the church is not a monolithic entity, guided by a single voice or a single goal. It is made up of individual priestesses, all of whom are loyal to Lolth, but all of whom have the same drive to dominate the weak and
advance their own cause as any other drow. Thus, although a drow priestess can bring substantial might to bear against a
lone individual or small family who offends her, she cannot muster the resources of the church against an entire house,
unless the house has blatantly and conspicuously turned against Lolth as a whole. The houses of the drow hold the bulk of the community’s economic and military power in their hands. In some communities, a specific house might be a greater power even than the priestesses of Lolth, directing the activities of religious leaders with behind-the-scenes threats or open shows of force. The high priestess of a community might also be a highly ranked matriarch of a great house, using one to advance the schemes of the other. No single house has ever managed to rise to dominance across multiple drow cities, however, and few maintain a permanent position of authority even in individual communities. Each house is tied to the other houses in a complex web of treaties and conflicts, alliances and betrayals. Should one house become too powerful, others ally to bring it down Priestesses and house matriarchs hold great power over other drow— just so long as they have the might to enforce it (even while appearing, on the surface, to support them, playing both sides against the middle). Further, although the church usually lacks the power to single-handedly destroy a house, neither can a house afford to make an enemy of the church. Too much of the power in a community is held by Lolth’s priestesses, and a house that fails to work with those priestesses loses access to those channels of influence. Although such an occurrence is rare, the church can decree that a house has earned the disfavor of Lolth, essentially giving all other houses blanket permission and encouragement to openly turn against it. Some houses are strong enough to withstand even this sort of assault, which invariably leads to a dilution of the church’s position in the community. But more often, such a decree results in the house being weakened sufficiently for another to rise and take its place. When one adds to this already volatile mix the constant scheming of house members against one another, in the hope of gaining higher status within the house, it’s quite understandable that no single house has ever managed to hold widespread power for long.

If you really want to make people work together you create a debt. I think the temple of Lolth should have a limited amount of yathrin positions. Say we pick four. Each house is required to send one yathrin to serve in the temple. And based on the number of yathrin a house has, the more they pay in taxes if you will. Now the church is not going to take all the yathrin a house has so each house will only be allowed to send a yathrin if they have two or more. This yathrin serves the high priest and is part of her Council. Each matron is also on the council. The power play is those yathrin spots.

Each house is required to send one but who will hold theses other voting positions? Do you see where I am going with this? This is how we tie the house to the yath and the yath to the house. It is a give and take

I just want to see the Church of Lolth come into existance. I think some of us are fighting something before it even has a chance to be made.

Yes Jeremor I did... funny thing is I am not advocating that the Quellars have no power.. What I am saying is the Yath is an institution on its own.. unlike what you have been saying and that is:

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Qu'ellar is everything in Drow roleplay

Which I am pointing out is wrong. It is a component of Drow RP ... the basis of our RP is based on 3 pillars in the community Church, House and Military.

As each time I have also stated that in every Drow City it can be a different power base and if it is decided that the Houses hold that power here in DB then great... but to give it a blanket statement and say it is lore ... well I think the lore I have posted can show that no that is not the case.

Shadow