Power Restructuring Thread [Preliminary Structure is up]

It appears many of you are against Ul'Tallar = PC. but I'm a numbers guy so I'm posting a Poll in the UD thread Please vote ( your arguments against are beginning to sway me). I'll also be posting other polls as this discussion begins to take form. There will be a reform in the nature of OOC standards. Much like the Surface and Descent Policy(Wildly Popular I've heard).


But I really want you the players to build this with sound ideas (which you have many) and finally some follow through. When the OOC Guideline posts, then thats it, it's there and from then on you have to start really policing yourselves. I can only be around so much to enforce this, but the real change and augmentation will come from you all.


As for fishing comments about personal Ic choices and Role play blunders. Stop. This will only start a riot and then the mudslinging will happen. We are not here to debate personal RP traits, we all have strengths and flaws, the mixture of these subjected to others is what makes our IG lives interesting. We are here to discuss unity and organization for our chaotic world. This should be fun people. The work we put in should be fun too.


I've watched every person on this thread RP extensively and have to say that you are all amazingly creative and inspiring. We'll prolly never get this 100% accurate, but who cares? Let's do the best we can, be reasonable, considerate and have some perspective.


Let's have fun.



Now, there's something I'm going to make very clear to the UD community right now which promotes Anti-fun.

Carrying around anger or resentment because of past issues with other players, staff or characters, Oocly.

Find whomever or whatever you have a problem with and fix it.

If you cant?

Post a notice and Leave immediately.

I am tolerant on many things and will fight to make our world as player driven as possible. But if you think you are carrying around animosity due to the past issues on the server, I strongly suggest you send me a tell and explain how we can fix it. Don't send a message just to whine and complain, send me your problem and a way you think it may be fixed.

I hear what your saying Gandruff and I can see that. However, I really feel as there needs to be level restrictions. To be called a Priests of Lolth and not have the ability to cast at least level 5 spells, seems off to me. Why are you a yathrin when any yath'abban can access more of Lolth's spells then you?


Yath'abban - at least 5 levels of cleric, FS, or some other sort of divine caster (and or Warlock as these are being RP'ed by a few as yath'abbans), and an over all level of 10. I say level 10 here because this gets rid of the level 1 troll. You have time to meet all the players, learn the lore and establish yourself. It is not about 'grinding' It is about taking the time to know the server and learn. Making at least level 10 shows your intention is serious. You need to past the Test of Lolth in game, (or in a PM to a yathrin if there is time zone issues) You will need to rp your intent to join and be accepted in the church. This can be in a thread on the forums if there is a time zone issue.

Yathrin - The ability to cast level 5 divine spells ( you must be either a FS or a Cleric, no other class) and an over all level of 18. This is completely do able and shows you are growing in the church as you should. It gives a 8 level buffer that is really not so hard to reach IG. You need to be approved by a yath'tallar. Past the tests of Lolth and have done a good amount of rp, not just grinding.

Yath'tallar- Clerics only! The ablilty to cast level 9 divine spells. It makes 0 since for other clerics to have greater access to divine spells then the High priest so anything under level 9 divine to me, is not very lore based. You must have an over all level of 23. This is do able and shows you are comitted. This must be DM approved, as well as the matron of what ever house your in approved.

I kinda disagree compleatly with propossed level assesment thing, ignore the epic levels, thats Ul'Tallar stuff, I think Yath,abban, Yath'rin and finaly yathtaller ranks should be obtainable in the level 1-20 range, yathabban being at the low end yathtaller being at the high end, I would say its simply more true too the spirte of D&D and lore. (I hope and think im correct about the lore bit)

FuzzieBunny wrote:

I hear what your saying Gandruff and I can see that. However, I really feel as there needs to be level restrictions. To be called a Priests of Lolth and not have the ability to cast at least level 5 spells, seems off to me. Why are you a yathrin when any yath'abban can access more of Lolth's spells then you?


Yath'abban - at least 5 levels of cleric, FS, or some other sort of divine caster (and or Warlock as these are being RP'ed by a few as yath'abbans), and an over all level of 10. I say level 10 here because this gets rid of the level 1 troll. You have time to meet all the players, learn the lore and establish yourself. It is not about 'grinding' It is about taking the time to know the server and learn. Making at least level 10 shows your intention is serious. You need to past the Test of Lolth in game, (or in a PM to a yathrin if there is time zone issues) You will need to rp your intent to join and be accepted in the church. This can be in a thread on the forums if there is a time zone issue.

Yathrin - The ability to cast level 5 divine spells ( you must be either a FS or a Cleric, no other class) and an over all level of 18. This is completely do able and shows you are growing in the church as you should. It gives a 8 level buffer that is really not so hard to reach IG. You need to be approved by a yath'tallar. Past the tests of Lolth and have done a good amount of rp, not just grinding.

Yath'tallar- Clerics only! The ablilty to cast level 9 divine spells. It makes 0 since for other clerics to have greater access to divine spells then the High priest so anything under level 9 divine to me, is not very lore based. You must have an over all level of 23. This is do able and shows you are comitted. This must be DM approved, as well as the matron of what ever house your in approved.

This however I do agree with

ObsidianRaven wrote:

FuzzieBunny wrote:

I hear what your saying Gandruff and I can see that. However, I really feel as there needs to be level restrictions. To be called a Priests of Lolth and not have the ability to cast at least level 5 spells, seems off to me. Why are you a yathrin when any yath'abban can access more of Lolth's spells then you?


Yath'abban - at least 5 levels of cleric, FS, or some other sort of divine caster (and or Warlock as these are being RP'ed by a few as yath'abbans), and an over all level of 10. I say level 10 here because this gets rid of the level 1 troll. You have time to meet all the players, learn the lore and establish yourself. It is not about 'grinding' It is about taking the time to know the server and learn. Making at least level 10 shows your intention is serious. You need to past the Test of Lolth in game, (or in a PM to a yathrin if there is time zone issues) You will need to rp your intent to join and be accepted in the church. This can be in a thread on the forums if there is a time zone issue.

Yathrin - The ability to cast level 5 divine spells ( you must be either a FS or a Cleric, no other class) and an over all level of 18. This is completely do able and shows you are growing in the church as you should. It gives a 8 level buffer that is really not so hard to reach IG. You need to be approved by a yath'tallar. Past the tests of Lolth and have done a good amount of rp, not just grinding.

Yath'tallar- Clerics only! The ablilty to cast level 9 divine spells. It makes 0 since for other clerics to have greater access to divine spells then the High priest so anything under level 9 divine to me, is not very lore based. You must have an over all level of 23. This is do able and shows you are comitted. This must be DM approved, as well as the matron of what ever house your in approved.

This however I do agree with

Well I can go with having to cast X level spells as that then allows for well a range of builds that arent just pure cleric, I guess I can work with 23 getting there will be a nightmare to those who are outside our DM's timezone due to well no quests down here but thats a different topic.
I would also suggest that for yathtallar they have to prove they can turn undead so prove they arent a FS

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So i guess we should plan an event while we debate it and if the debate leads to the negative then just have the event fall through.

I see no sense in moving forward with that until we have some clarification here. Changes made here could result in holding the fore mentioned event pointless. So best to work this out first I think.

As far a level requirments go. I agree with Mi’reli the bar is being set a little too high. My suggestion would be rather than going off of levels, go by spell level but with bar set lower than what has been suggested. Something like this:

Yath’abban – Temple Agent - Classes: Cleric, Favored Soul, black guard, divine champion, war priest, warlock, assassin
People who may or may not be of a house but directly serve the temple.
Malla’Yath’abban – Priestess in training. - Ability to cast 4th level divine spells(ie, Greater Magic Weapon), Classes: Cleric, Favored Soul, war priest. Must be Noble.
The priestesses in training.
Yathrin – Ability to cast 6th level divine spells (Harm, heal) Classes: Cleric, Favored Soul,, war priest
Priestesses
Yath’tellar – (Any Epic Spell, set the bar higher than 9th level spells.Epic spells show a commitment to the class and class oriented skills) Cleric
The High Priestess
And of course an NPC Ulath’tellar with almost god like power do to her closeness to the goddess.

More suggestions. -
All who plan to be Yathrin or higher have to go through the church, not a house. This does not mean the Yathrin or Yath'tellars have to be un-housed. Vice versa, the houses send recruits to the Yath to train and grow. Arach Tinilith to the core.
Houses that do not abide by this will slowly begin to fall in the eyes of the church. In other wards, if the houses are not sending their little Yath hopefuls in to Arach Tinilith, will be viewed as having contempt for the church by Arach Tinilith. This will not bode well for the offending house. In our worlds application of course, we only have two houses so to avoid partisan squabbles, the NPC Ulath'tellar would be utilized here. She would simply step in and force the house to give up it's priestess to Arach Tinlith, her by whatever means the DM decides.
The Il'haressen, will strive to increase their own status in the church's eyes so they will be trying to send every able bodied potential priestess to the church as soon as they are ready to become Malla Yatha'abbanen.
Il'haressen will also relinquish the rank of Yath'tellar (If necassary) when they take their mantle. They will be considered Yathrin in church rank, but church status and standing can be much higher if they have many Malla'Yath'abanen and Yathrin with in the church. This is pure logic of how it should work. The house with most Yath is strongest with in the church in this manner. This could even be a way to achieve first house. By having the largest amount of Yath.
Malla'Yathabbanen will play students as much as Yath. Once a real life month the Malla Yath'abbanen will be tested. If there is only one Yath'abban with in the Yath at that time there will be no test. Only one Yath'abban will pass these tests, if any at all. They will have to compete, whoever has the most skilled knowledgeable will likely have to win.
Malla Yath'abbanen are considered lower house members. Below house masters. Respect to there superiors, is something the rest of the Yath will judge them on. Any Yathrin or Yath'tellar can choose to hold a Malla'Yath'abban back from testing if they choose.
Once a Malla Yath'abban has passed eight tests. They will be advanced to Yathrin.
The Yathrin will be the average members of the church. Your typicall Drow Priestess. They will hold the Yath above all else and force others to be Lolthian. The Yathrin are also the teachers. They must teach the Malla Yath'abbanen no matter what house and much teach the drow of their houses the ways of Lolth. If a Yathrin from one house feels a any drow of another house must learn a hard lesson, they can whip them if they choose. If they feel harsher instruction is in order, they must bring it before a Yath'tellar, the Il'haress, or three other Yathrinen to decide further punishment.
Arach Tinlith will be the only thing that can declare any drow or house heretical. No single drow will have this ability. A Yath'tellar however can declare heresy and bring the matter upto the combined Yath. The combined Yathrinen will then hold an OOC vote to determine Lolth's will, with 2/3s of those poled required to rule in favor of declaring said drow or house hertical. The vote will be OOC and will be considered Lolth's will in the matter. If the vote fails, the Yath will shrug it off. This is important, because in the case of a house having no Yath, it will fall. It also makes it difficult to declare a heretic with out really hard evidence.
The Yath'tellar will also will work to co-ordiante the Yath. They will be the judge, jury to all drow. Even the Yathrinen. A presence on the boards should be important for this rank as well.
Yathrinen will also need to be heavily heavily tested to be Yath'tellar. Even if they meet the requirments for class and spells. The Ulathtellar will approve who is and is not Yath'tellar. They will need to be on the boards as well as in game. Maybe even a Quorum call once a week to make sure the Yath is present and active on the boards at least.

To do this, the Yath will need it's own section of the board to discuss matters privately OOC and IC.

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Hey I'm active I've just been an initiate for 2 months

Sorry my friend, didn’t mean to leave you out. Was counting full members. Send me a PM or find me in game, in regards to your still being an initiate. We can fix that quickly, my apologies it has taken so long.

The broad idea of level limits I agree with, but I'm kinda with Gandruff on using spell levels castable rather than blunt level. Ability to cast third-circle spells (i.e. level 5 cleric) for Yath'abban seems an even compromise between making people dedicate to the role a bit before getting the power and the fact that technically there's no priestly rank below Yath'abban.

The broad strokes of Lord Droke's proposal, again, seem fairly good to me, but I do have two points of contention:

1) Blackguards, Divine Champions etc are Yath'sargtlin by what standardized canon I'm aware of so I don't see why you'd roll them into the Yath'abban other than having a similar comparative rank, separated mainly by the gender issue and the fact that a Yath'abban has an up to go to, rankwise.

2) 'Malla' is used by a fair few people in the camp, myself included, as a generic prefix to show particular respect to an individual either generally or situationally - making it part of a title makes this..wonky. If someone is talking to three Yath'abban and one is generally considered 'superior' or close to Yath'rin-hood then one might opt to add a 'Malla' to show one's awareness of the pecking order, but making it part of a title will, I feel, lead to confusion.

Additionally, since we're now talking in terms of Arach Tinlith, perhaps consideration of how the Yath as a body should be interacting with Sorcere and Melee-Magthere should be made in broad terms so we're somewhat prepared for when they hopefully arise.

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Blackguards, Divine Champions etc are Yath'sargtlin by what standardized canon I'm aware of so I don't see why you'd roll them into the Yath'abban other than having a similar comparative rank, separated mainly by the gender issue and the fact that a Yath'abban has an up to go to, rankwise.

Yath'abban roughly translates to Temple Agent. This area of the church is a good area to put the characters who want to be Yath'sargtlin but are not yet higher level was part of my thinking here. A 12th level fighter blackguard of Selvatarm or Lolth can still have a conection to the church in this, albeit a weak one. I listed simply to describe these types of character, it would technically not be considered part of the clergy. The Yath'sargtlin would be considered the clergy's enforcer, guard, and champion.

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2) 'Malla' is used by a fair few people in the camp, myself included, as a generic prefix to show particular respect to an individual either generally or situationally - making it part of a title makes this..wonky. If someone is talking to three Yath'abban and one is generally considered 'superior' or close to Yath'rin-hood then one might opt to add a 'Malla' to show one's awareness of the pecking order, but making it part of a title will, I feel, lead to confusion.

The names are irrelevant and can be changed. I was just trying to differentiate. The temple would have blackguards, Divine Champions assassins and Draegloth's (Warlocks) with in it's ranks, not as part of the clergy but these classes would still be involved in ways that transcend the houses. This also does not mean these classes must be the of the church.

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Yath'tellar however can declare heresy and bring the matter upto the combined Yath. The combined Yathrinen will then hold an OOC vote to determine Lolth's will, with 2/3s of those poled required to rule in favor of declaring said drow or house hertical. The vote will be OOC and will be considered Lolth's will in the matter. If the vote fails, the Yath will shrug it off. This is important, because in the case of a house having no Yath, it will fall. It also makes it difficult to declare a heretic with out really hard evidence.

I feel strongly that heresy is a case that can only be made with DM approval. Perhaps Once the yath cast their vote, the send the results with SS to the DM. This way the Yath cast their voice, but the DM has the final say. This is a kill on sight listing and pretty much means your done in the UD, period. There should be SS submitted of the supposed heresy with this The only exception should be in the case where it is freely admitted. Such as Player X Cries out her battle cry.

"FOR LOVE AND JUSTICE, LADY FIREHAIR"

So... clearly this is hersey. Or

" Huh? No.. that is not a holy symbol of Tyr... It just looks like one... And glows when I call out spells, and humms with divine power when I channel... Yeah, pay that no mind."

FuzzieBunny wrote:

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Yath'tellar however can declare heresy and bring the matter upto the combined Yath. The combined Yathrinen will then hold an OOC vote to determine Lolth's will, with 2/3s of those poled required to rule in favor of declaring said drow or house hertical. The vote will be OOC and will be considered Lolth's will in the matter. If the vote fails, the Yath will shrug it off. This is important, because in the case of a house having no Yath, it will fall. It also makes it difficult to declare a heretic with out really hard evidence.

I feel strongly that heresy is a case that can only be made with DM approval. Perhaps Once the yath cast their vote, the send the results with SS to the DM. This way the Yath cast their voice, but the DM has the final say. This is a kill on sight listing and pretty much means your done in the UD, period. There should be SS submitted of the supposed heresy with this The only exception should be in the case where it is freely admitted. Such as Player X Cries out her battle cry.

+1
We will be voting on whether or not a whole house has secretly been worshiping a whole different god about never. This is outrageous. heresy has been abused so heavily in the past i wont have it.

If there is proof an individual is a heretic let it be screen shot and acted on, but for goodness sake the voting thing would be like if we gave the house of representatives the power to vote the senate out of government. while it would be hilarious to have a lolth worshiping house branded heretics and ran out of camp, it would be unfounded and terrible for many players. If your going to do things like please call it house warfare because that is what it is. not heresy.

If a house forms, and through proof and witnessed occurrences its discovered that like half the members are heretics (solid proof they have been worshiping not lolth) then -maybe- it would be safe to call it a heretic house. none of this voting.

I see the sense you meant it in LD, your trying to make heresy harder to declare. on the short term you have your self a solution, but in the long term you have a terrible tool of destruction.

again +1 fuzziebunny

Lord Droke wrote:

The names are irrelevant and can be changed. I was just trying to differentiate. The temple would have blackguards, Divine Champions assassins and Draegloth's (Warlocks) with in it's ranks, not as part of the clergy but these classes would still be involved in ways that transcend the houses. This also does not mean these classes must be the of the church.

Emphasis mine.

Not to derail the topic, but we are talking about using Drow warlocks to represent these? Not trolling/disputing or anything, just want to clarify since I was unaware of that (as a relative newbie) and would've been confused as hell if someone had been introduced to me as such IG. Does this need inclusion in one of the Drow Infodump writeups?

It is just a suggestion, based on the idea that Draegloth is Demon/Drow crossbreed similiar to a warlock. Of course, it is a given that Draegloth are much more beastial than your typical drow warlock.

I was merely brainstorming with this concept. If anyone was ever allowed to play such a character it would probably best be done with DM blessing and tweaking through leto or some such. A Draegloth PC to our community would be an interesting twist, though not by far a needed one. The ritual's and rites involved with Draegloth creation (coupling with demons) would tie the PC to the church and bring honor to whichever house it belongs.

I am not sure I can really see it as a PC, but as an NPC for one of the two current NCP House would be awesome.

Hint hint Mindflayer - interesting if not provocative RP Suggestion

Lord Droke wrote:

It is just a suggestion, based on the idea that Draegloth is Demon/Drow crossbreed similiar to a warlock. Of course, it is a given that Draegloth are much more beastial than your typical drow warlock.

I was merely brainstorming with this concept. If anyone was ever allowed to play such a character it would probably best be done with DM blessing and tweaking through leto or some such. A Draegloth PC to our community would be an interesting twist, though not by far a needed one. The ritual's and rites involved with Draegloth creation (coupling with demons) would tie the PC to the church and bring honor to whichever house it belongs.

I think I read this in a Dritiz book once, when he was still in the underdark, he had just fineshed his trainning at the fighters school, as did the Yath, so there was a ceremony where each fighter was picked by a yath to do a coupling tritual, and in the middle on a raised dais was the star of the Yath class reciving her.... honors.

I for one would be interested in seeing how such a thing could be implimented into the UD and how the rp played out.

also in regards too this, I'v been wondering, if a player decides too play a drow Teifling by picking the darkest skin and white hair, how would that character fit into the Illythiiri Culture?

That would technically be a Draegloth, they bring lots of prestige to that ones illhar. after all its a sign that your in lolths favor

Once again Draegloth would need to be handled very carefully

Mmmm at teifling level would they not be the grandson/daughter of a Draegloth?

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the star of the Yath class receiving her.... honors.

Homeland, and yes it never occurred to me before that is what was happening. LOL

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also in regards too this, I'v been wondering, if a player decides too play a drow Teifling by picking the darkest skin and white hair, how would that character fit into the Illythiiri Culture?

A rothe, unless you asking about running it as a Draegloth. In which case I would say no, like warlock the appearance still would not be right. Take a look at my Avatar Pic the drow is Triel Baenre, Arch Mistress of Arach Tinlith and behind her is her pet Draegloth. Kind of hard to make a PC that looks anything like with out something like leto, you just loose the effect. Though I do admit the RP involved would be interesting to say the least, but in truth the ritual RP involving the Yath is a little raunchy . Though a character would be interest, maybe a permanent NPC servant to the church?

Lord Droke wrote:

but in truth the ritual RP involving the Yath is a little raunchy . Though a character would be interest, maybe a permanent NPC servant to the church?

Mass orgies all round! hehe yeah it would conflict with the erp rule... just a bit hehe, then again could also just do a mass skype rp of something if that ever did happen. but I do like the idea of, if it did happen ~for now till we decide how the ritual would be handle, could just treat as, and fade too black, yes.. there is good times for all... apart from the star girl... youll be walking like a cowgirl for weeks darling! they who ever gets..... the honors, later onwhen the thing claws its way out, that qu'ella, or temple, ect gets the speical npc gaurd?

A Tiefling is a human-fiend crossbreed descendant. Fey-ri are the elven-fiend crossbreed descendant equivalent, but appear to all (99% etc) be Sun Elves, in the case of the 'core population' in the Demonfey at least. In a similar way to Tannarruk being the Orc-fiend equivalent.

A Drow with significant demon blood is best represented, in my opinion with a Warlock insofar as the options available to us on the sever go.

Lets get back to topic please. Draegloths will not be a PC implemented selection, though maybe in the future for an NPC Qu'ellar or the church. It would be low on my priorities at this point. Interesting concept however.

Late to the convo but will put my thoughts having played in a Drow society for a few years now on other worlds.

A Yath'Abban is a temple agent. Take it like a squire. They are the lowest of the low. They have to spend their time servicing the Temple and ALL its betters. If a Yathrin comes by and barks orders, they jump and rightfully so. As long as they do not have contradicting orders from another better they will do as told. That is why they should be level 1 to make the grade. They spend so many years devoting their time and efforts to pleasing the Temple and the betters, by the time they rank up they will be able to cast level 5 spells (IE Level 9 cleric). There can be lots of these, there should be lots of these. They have no real stature in Drow Society, as they are TRAINEES. As such when they are out in public, they are treated as such. They will of course get their *NODS* and bows from males, but if they Ul'Saruk strolls by the Yath'Abban will be the one bowing as while he is a male he holds a much higher prestigious rank within the city. Yath'Abban do not bark orders, they take em.

Yath'rin have done their due, they have put in their time. They are accorded the proper respect as such only their betters within the heirarchy will get their respect and proper *bows*. As such, I would recommend 2 per house +2 for temple duties. If there is 4 active houses, then 10 Yathrin would be appropriate. The Yathrin are the back bone of the temple, doing the most work with the least pay. They carry out the important missions bestowed upon them by the Yath'tallar and Ul'ath'tallar. They are similiar to NON COMs in the military.

Yath'tallar are the ones who ensure lolth's will is followed, train the ranks of Yathrin and dictate comings and goings with the Ul'ath'tallar. These should be Lolth's favored ones, as to rise to this rank requires years and years of dedication without the slightest slip. They are also the ones who the Ul'ath'tallar must watch the closer, cause anyone of them could ascend to the next level.

Ul'ath'tallar-speaker of the Queen. She is the Queen's right hand, dictating her desires for the city. She does NOT speak for the houses, and has no authority over them. Rather, she speaks for and has authority of the temple and all who hold rank within it. This is Lolth's most favored Priestess, to ascend to this rank the current must do something to fall out of grace.

Fuligar wrote:

.

The argument isn't what the description of the ranks are so much as, what level requirement would be appropriate for them on this server taking into account mechanics of this server, in order to balance our communities ratios. So we dont generate complaints that there's 6 yathrin 1 mage and 1 fighter on at any given time as thats a tad unusual. Also some have complained that in general the yath have been off base in rp a tad. So were not arguing how many yath should be in each house, I personal dont like restrictions on the number of pc's that can hold a rank because if its only a few then what happens when a couple high up players stop playing for some reason? the house gets kinda thrown to the wolves.

That being said, i do disagree. The didn't pull some random joe of the street and make him squire. Squire's im sure had to display some sort of athleticism before given rank. The same is true here. That's why I'm advocating increasing the requirement for yath'abben and adding a lower rank beneath yathabben to fill the gap, that way level 1 female lolthite clerics have something to be called before they're given the very politically powerful rank of yath abben.

+! Say it loud Dave

Actually alot of times the squire was a position given to those who paid the most to the Knight to take their son. Putting that aside, I believe every Jalil and Jaluk has to attend training at one of the three acadamies upon reaching proper age.

Those Jalil's when they attend the temple for their teachings have had their basics taught to them so they do not dishonor their house with their lack of knowledge and such. Adding a rank before Yath'Abban is only fooling yourself into the fact that there is not as many YathAbban's. As I said in previous posts, YathAbban are nobody's at that rank, they should be treated as such. By doing this, it will either cause them to fall to the way side or buck up and work to their next rank.